Yesterday I received an email from a reader who had hired a copywriter based on my recommendation in late 2009.
Unfortunately, he was not happy with the sales letter he received from the copywriter, and the copywriter allegedly did not complete the work he had been paid to do.
About seven weeks ago, the reader wrote to me about his negative experience with this copywriter. It was the second complaint I had received from readers regarding this copywriter, and I had also received an additional warning from a fellow marketer.
At that point, I pulled my endorsement of the copywriter, and made it clear on my website that I am no longer recommending him.
Now yesterday I received another email from the reader…
Hi Eric,
I hope you are well.
Just to let you know I contacted BBB.org, PayPal and my credit card company.
The business of [redacted] is not registered with BBB.org.
The complaint with PayPal can only be filed within 45 days from the date of payment and that period is exceeded due to [redacted] procrastination and the story telling.
My credit card company is not able to provide the refund of $1344 I paid to [redacted] for the letters he never wrote as there is an involvement from PayPal between them and the vendor.
I acted on your recommendation to choose services of [redacted] as you described him trustworthy and reliable.
From all people and businesses who gave testimonials on his web site only one responded on my enquiry.
The others simply ignored my enquiry and some of the have URL error.
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency and am asking you to provide me with the full refund.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards
Dragutin
As you’ve seen, the reader is asking me to compensate him for the payment he made to the copywriter.
I should mention that I do appreciate his polite tone. If he had sent a “flame” I wouldn’t be featuring it here.
I asked him for some additional information, and here is a copy of his communications with the copywriter:
PDF of email correspondence [redacted]
So there are really two questions at stake here…
1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote as an affiliate?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
The ramifications are very significant, because the answers to these questions affect not only this situation but also…
– Everything I endorse/promote.
– Everyone who endorses anything or promotes something as an affiliate.
This is why the Internet marketing world was in a tizzy last December when the FTC rolled out their new guidelines for endorsements and testimonials.
So let’s answer the first question, as it applies to this situation:
Am I legally liable?
According to the FTC, endorsers may be liable for false or unsubstantiated claims made in an endorsement, or for failure to disclose material connections between the advertiser and endorsers.
Let’s talk about false or unsubstantiated claims.
If I had blindly promoted the product/service without checking it out first (as many affiliates do in this industry, and as I have done in the past on occasion), then I believe I might bear liability if my claims did not match up to the product. Let that be a word of warning to all affiliate marketers: You ARE responsible for what you say/write.
However, in this case I was speaking from first-hand experience. I had actually paid this copywriter $197 to write a sales letter for me, and I felt that the product I received was a good value for the amount that I had paid.
Therefore, my claim was substantiated, and I made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers.
Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections.
I initially wrote my recommendation in October of 2009, which was prior to the new FTC guidelines going into effect.
When the new guidelines went into effect on December 1st, I added an “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement” to my website, which I believe satisfies this requirement. If I am shown otherwise, then I might need to get more aggressive about disclosing material/affiliate relationships.
In this particular case, I never did get paid an affiliate commission for the sale in question. So I’m not sure how that affects the material connection from a legal standpoint. Am I still an affiliate if I’m getting scammed too?
OK, so in my opinion I am NOT legally liable for the copywriter’s failure in this situation.
But that brings us to the next question…
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth, and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
If I were him, I probably would have written the same email to me.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
From the look of my dear reader’s emails, he’s gone through the denial and anger stages, and has now come around to the bargaining stage. Like I said, I’d be bargaining too.
I see this from two perspectives… justice, and compassion.
From the justice standpoint, I believe it would not be right for me to give him the refund out of my own pocket. Would justice be served by this? No.
Now… IF I had been paid a commission, I do think partial justice could be served if I refunded that commission to the customer. But in this case, there is no commission to speak of.
From a compassion standpoint, I’d love to help out my reader.
If we were talking about a much smaller dollar amount, I probably would have just offered to pay for it (or more likely… I wouldn’t have gotten an email about it in the first place). But $1344 is a decent chunk of change.
We all know the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If it were the other way around, would I want him to pay for my refund out of his pocket? Yes I would, at this moment in time. But after more time has passed, I would most likely come to the conclusion that justice would not be served by an otherwise innocent affiliate paying me out of his own pocket.
In other words, my sense of justice would eventually trump my desire for recompense. (The two are not mutually exclusive. The victim should be paid back in order for justice to be served, but taking the money from the wrong person is not the solution)
So I do not think it is my moral obligation to pay for the customer’s loss…
But I want to know what YOU think!
I told the customer I would post this on my blog, and take my reader’s opinions into consideration.
I want to know:
What would you do in my situation, and why?
I am absolutely willing to pay a full refund to the customer if the arguments in his favor outweigh the arguments against.
I wish I could just err on the side of compassion, but obviously such a precedent could open me up to a lot of headaches and abuse due to other customers taking advantage of my leniency. If that is the outcome, then I will probably change some things about how I run my business.
Post your comments below. Please do not “trash” me OR the customer or even the copywriter. That’s not the point of this. At the same time I am not necessarily looking for support. I want your honest opinion, even if you are not on my side.
Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers. So let us know what you think.
Thanks for your input!
UPDATE: I’ve now posted the conclusion to this saga here:
Eric,
We are all talking about amounts of money (even you said that if it had been $197 you would have probably paid or more likely you would not even have had the the request in the first place.
OK so $1300ish dollars is a lot more and you are feeling (possibly) a bit guilty after all it was your recommendation. And whilst that is a large amount, to say me or the guy complaining to a self proclaimed internet millionaire I guess it is not a lot.
So am I saying you should pay ?…..No
Lets move this recommendation stuff up a notch.
Suppose you have a baby sitter who looks after your children and is from your point of view good at what they are doing. So you recommend that person to someone else, who hires the baby sitter. However, the baby sitter (for whatever reason)kills the child they are looking after. Are you feeling guilty? hell yes! Are you guilty of the murder, should you be held responsible for the death of that child? No.
(and believe me I know about feeling guilty check out MatthewFulham.org ..and all I did was take my family on holiday)
Whilst your personal feeling of guilt may make you feel that you are responsible in some way, you didn’t do anything other than make an honest recommendation. Lets face it we all have 20:20 vision with hindsight!
However, would obviously be different if you knew previously that the person was or was likely to commit murder.
So if you know in your heart that it was an honest recommendation, you know it’s not your fault. I feel sorry for the the guy who got scammed.
Iv’e been there with payment processor SWReg who wouldn’t repay on a 60 day guarantee even though it was an hour after the purchase. When I realised that that what they sold me was not what the sales letter made it out to be. Even paypal wouldn’t back me up.
So now I use ‘Buyer Beware’ and before purchasing anything check out the seller as far as I can. Needless to say that after the above I found lots of scam complaints about the person/company concerned. But I should have done my due diligence before hand.
So I don’t believe you are liable or that you should pay him anything.
Eric, I firmly believe you are NOT responsible for the actions of Dragutin or any other person who tries to make you their scapegoat. The onus lies on everyone to substantiate the honesty & integrity of any supplier of a product before purchasing it – you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. It was his own choice to use [redacted] – you didn’t force him to even though you personally had received good service from NC. I’m wondering if Dragutin or any of the other complaints you’ve received, studied the Terms & Conditions on NC’s website before placing an order. It appears that Dragutin did not read your TERMS & CONDITIONS on your website either, before engaging the service of the copywriter in question. (I copied & pasted the following from your website):
*****************
TERMS & CONDITIONS:
7. DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY.
….Information on our website should not necessarily be relied upon and should not to be construed to be professional advice from us. We do not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any of the information provided, and are not responsible for any loss resulting from your reliance on such information.
10. INDEMNIFICATION.
You understand and agree that you will indemnify, defend and hold us and our affiliates harmless from any liability, loss, claim and expense, including reasonable attorney’s fees, arising from your use of our website or your violation of these terms and conditions.
*******************
I also believe that by making a ‘good faith’ reimbursement, ‘meeting him halfway’ or any other way, would indeed set a precident, & not a good one either.
I do not think the BBB makes endorsements, but I know what you’re saying. Actually many of the things I recommend are probably not listed with the BBB. In fact I’m not even registered with them. I do think the BBB is a good resource to check companies out, and they serve a good purpose when it comes to consumer protection. But I wouldn’t rule out someone’s integrity just because they aren’t listed. I personally don’t support them, because they are a for-profit business that IMO masquerades as a government authority, and they try to pressure businesses into coughing up registration fees or risk being labled a fraudulent business.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the BBB is a bad company, but they ARE a business, and I think they push the envelope with some of their local marketing tactics, which is ironic.
I hesitate to even write this, because I don’t want to be blacklisted by them or something, LOL.
In my opinion, you are not legally liable in this matter, however, I do think you have a responsibility to help this person get his money back.
Your internet background and experience will hold considerably more weight than a newbie trying to get the powers that be to listen to him/her.
I’ll be interested in learning how this comes out.
Very interesting analysis.
Good to hear from you Pete!
It’s an interesting point.
I’ve already mentioned that if the amount had been much lower, I’d have probably just paid it.
But ultimately, the amount of money doesn’t dictate morality, does it?
I suppose it shouldn’t matter whether it was $10 or $100,000. Whatever is the RIGHT thing to do should apply regardless of the dollar amount.
Or does our society shape our ethics based on certain dollar amounts? And if so, what are those amounts? And is that truly moral?
“For example, if I sell web hosting or have some kind of a paid monthly members site that he can benefit from, I would offer to give him a free lifetime membership.”
That’s certainly an option.
Hi Eric – WOW You constantly amaze me about your openess.
No you are no legally obligated, but you would feel better – as a person – in the long run to reimburse him.
You stated yours and his case very eloquently.
Please HOWEVER make it very clear that this is a one time DEAL and would not repeated again in similar situations.
It was because you were able to “converse” that this warranted review and comment.
Thanks – Whatever your decision may be.
I agree that this should be a matter of principle and not dollar amount.
“Eric I suggest you pray and see what God has to say here to you.”
Absolutely.
“Personally I do not think it was right that you posted this on your blog site as it will only add to the man’s shame and embarrassment because he was duped.”
He knew I was going to post it, because I told him so when I asked him for the additional information. I was a concerned about this too though, which is why I made it clear that I would have done the same thing in his shoes. I hope he does not incur further shame as a result of this.
Always good to hear from you Neil.
Eric,
Had you vouched for this scammer in a manner implying a “guarantee” of his product, you most probably would be liable, at least on a moral basis. Appeasing your conscience by paying-up could have significant future consequences …. probably none of which are to your benefit. What happens next time??
Perhaps you should consider adding a disclaimer on your website regarding the use or acquisition of third party goods or services.
I assume that you are sincere in wanting to solve your problem in the most equitable manner possible. I respect that and wish you well.
Hi Eric,
Although Dragutin action was a result of a recommendation made by you, you do not owe him financially. As you stated, your dealing with this copywriter was satisfactory.Dragutin may have seen you as an authority figure on this issue, but it was still his responsibility to do due diligence before hiring [redacted]. I have purchased products from you that offered bonuses from other internet marketers that required me to purchase from one who I would have possibly considered purchasing from, but from my own investigation I found more negative comments on that marketer than positive and decided that I would not purchase from that marketer. However,I think it is a great idea that internet marketers use/test the products they push and refuse to promote those products they know are garbage. It can only help the credibility of the internet marketing industry and possibly increase sales.The idea is that people will know that you only promote quality products and not just any product just to make a buck from affiliates. However, in this particular situation, I do not think your actions warrant you to refund dragutin,especially since you did not benefit financially from his actions, although I understand why he is frustrated.I think this is an issue for him and [redacted] to resolve.
“Has this post been put up to justify, that you may have already made up your mind in this matter?”
That is a GREAT question. No that is not why I made the post. I absolutely do want to know what my readers think.
However, I would not go so far as to say my heart is 100% pure in the matter. I mentioned in another reply, I am an opportunist. And I saw the opportunity for a good blog post.
So while my intentions are sincere, I do have multiple motives.
“as a gesture of good will offer to take the sales letter he has had written, and get someone else to rectify what he is not happy about.”
It’s a good option if all else fails. It would be cheaper than coughing up $1344, and it would be less time consuming than writing a sales letter myself that I would normally charge $10k for.
Robert selby said it best!
I think refunding his money could set a dangerous precedent. If I recommend a movie to a friend and he doesn’t like it do I give him the money back or the theater? The harm done was by the copywriter and not you. You acted in good faith based on your own experience. He took a chance and lost his Paypal protection by waiting too long. A lesson for us all to do our own research and to be sure we have an enforceable agreement in place. Now if the letters were acceptable but he didn’t get the sales he wanted would he still hold you liable? I feel sorry for the guy but this stuff happens to us all. It is NOT your responsibility. He needs to settle with the writer.
No problem, just submit a ticket at my helpdesk referewncing this post, and we’ll get you the download. Make sure you open a helpdesk account if you haven’t already.
I appreciate the offer.
“Also, do not worry about any threat of turning you over to the BBB. They are a for profit organization and have no power at all. As far as I am concerned, the BBB is one of the worst scams out there!”
Haha, I said something similar in a reply above, although I used a bit nicer words 😉
Do you have a website?
I agree with Tim Ackley, i feel for the guy but you are not respondsible. It is a hard lesson to learn about people and how we cannot trust everybody in this world. I too am a newbie and have been scamed! and i have asked for a refund and i have recieved my money back. As for freezing his account i don’t know that, but i would have a serious conversation about his ethic’s and invite him to read all of these comments.
“have you spoken to your legal representative?”
I haven’t… and I would assume neither of the other two parties have either. Probably for the same reason: the cost of legal help vs. just settling the matter.
I could pay a good lawyer $500 for an hour of his time to advise me in the matter, but he might just end up telling me to pay the $1344. So I’d more likely just pay it.
But you are right, and if this were a “bigger” problem I’d definitely talk to a lawyer.
Eric: I have read a number of these comments and it’s very interesting what is being said. However, interesting sells papers but it does not settle what an emotional person feels should be done. You paid someone and had a good experience. We all have paid someone(s) and have had good experiences and we have paid someone(s) and had bad experiences. From an ethical stand point and you being responsible to the Creator, He will let you know what is right and what is wrong and I know you know that. When someone comes up with the idea that you should be liable for the experience he had in a situation like this – give me a break! Also why didn’t he spend time doing some more work investigating this person? Why didn’t he check out what paypals and his banks policies were? Why does … well the real question here maybe “who is this” asking a third party who put on his website that he obtained services, paid for them, and was satisfied – and now you are to pay him back for his own experience? If he only got one testimonial about an experience (yours) – does that say anything? You’re a stand-up guy and we live in a world of cut-throats and cheats as money rules and you see it every day in your email – “My best friend, this is a great product, you got to have this” – in a word please most of them haven’t even looked at them – The “Word” says – you want wisdom – “ask” – many don’t have the relationship to do that so they self justifying their own thinking searching for others who would agree with them – pretty much the world’s answer since time began!! It’s a good lesson – thanks for sharing – but if you pay this guy – can the rest of us get some also??
What does your attorney say?
When you say this person wrote the sales letter for you, where were you in your marketing ventures? Was your reputation established? It sounds like the person who paid $1300 for nothing was just stared in his and was taken advantage of.
Anyway, my feeling is you made a goodfaith recommendation even though you only used this writer one time. Are you responsible? I dont think so. Without a contract, their no winners. The writer will perhaps loose his business and reputation if he had one, and the client is out his money.
Everyone should use this action as a learning experience.
Geez… I think I see a new video for ya.
Take care,
Mark
“Dragutin is selling a product (the Bob Proctor one) that I think is all about changing your perspective about how you think about life and the world, and how we are the makers of our own destiny.”
Interesting! I didn’t know what he was about.
“I recently lost $250,000 – my life savings – because a company I had invested in went bust. It would be easy to blame the guy who owned the company (he did make serious mistakes) but I realised very quickly that this is the third time in my life I have lost money (never as much as this) because I invested money in something with the only intention of making money. Finally I have got the message – I am not supposed to do that! Sure, other people seem to be able to do it – but it’s not a path I should be on (even though I dress it up in what good things I could do with the money I make). So now I go back to my first principles – do good work of great value and you will be well paid for it.”
Good wisdom!
I agree with most of the answers that you are not liable. The buyer used poor judgment in paying up front the total price, especially since it was his first dealing with him.
You aren’t ethically obligated to reimburse him either. This person should look at this as an expensive lesson learned.
Thanks for your training and openness with your writings.Keep it up.
“When one exceeds a 50% good faith payment up front, it removes the incentive for some contractors to perform.”
Yup.
“Can we now sue every celebrity endorsing a soda, vitamin water, or travel website if services are not delivered as promised?”
In America, yes you can 🙂
Its such a shame eric. you give away so much quality information that people will follow your recommendations and your videos are brilliant. i can clearly imagine the guy who got stung choosing on your recommendation. i would.
i think you both got stung by a cheat. if i had the money to give this guy i would split the difference.
whatever you decide to do eric i’m still behind you, but you asked for my opinion.
Eric,
I have always been more than appreciative of your honesty, openness, helpful tips and information—quite a legacy and reputation in this business.
I was ripped off seriously ($13,800) by a coaching company that was highly referred by an IM’er I had been following. I was such a newbie, but let’s face it, all I had to do was Google this company’s name and do my own cursory investigation and I would have been put on notice that the price was way, way over the top and the “coaching” was a joke. I never got anything back from the “coaching” company but I never thought to go back to the IM’er who Definitely got an affiliate commission because of my purchase.
I think the copyguy owes the refund without question. His copy is nothing but goop and I recognized it as being copied from yet another guru’s sales page. No attempt was made to match the customer’s need. We should all flag this guy as a sham and a crook.
However, all that being said, your referrals mean something. You got notice that copyguy’s work had deteriorated, yet I’m not clear when that happened in the timeline with your customer. If you had put something out to your list that your recommendation no longer is valid for X,Y,Z, Etc., that could save a customer some $ if they take action. You show your moral compass in all the ethical work and timely information you do and give to help us fellow marketers. I would protect that reputation above your pocketbook and above all else. Almost everything life is fleeting (fame, wealth, popularity); but your character and your integrity remains. I would give him something that helps him learn the business a little better. It makes you both a winner in this unfortunate situation and since this information would be helpful to many others, you end up with an ebook that further establishes your value and credibility in IM.
Your ebook becomes a case study and copyguy may get a perspective and a loss to his income only we as customers can deliver.
I’ve not ignored any emails from you, I just haven’t seen any. But I do not offer free email consultation anyway. However, I do try to answer questions here on my blog when they are posted in response to relevant lessons.
I’m really sorry about your troubles, but it’s certainly not fair to blame them on “people like me”. I say this with sincerity, I think your victim mentality is holding you back more than any lack of opportunity or help from me.
“although you make some nice suggestions you don’t actually give away any secrets.”
You can believe what you want, but the fact is that I teach the exact methods that I use. You can call them secrets or not.
“you have made public a private business matter between yourself and one who came to you expecting you to treat them with respect and dignity and respond privately.
By exposing this for public review and opinion I’m afraid you have broken a trust barrier my friend.”
He knew I was going to make it public before he provided me with the additional information. He did not have a problem with it.
Otherwise I would have agreed with you.
“Was the $1344 for work the copywriter was to complete or for a product?”
I’m not sure exactly how it would be classified. The end result (Sales letter delivered as HTML document) is a product, but I think it would technically be considered a contracted service.
“I would suggest an email showing people/products you no longer recommend, and the reasons for this.”
Hmmm… maybe I should start Eric’s Blacklist? Haha, that would instill fear in a few marketers.
Thanks for weighing in Michel!
I understand his feelings also, as I have been scammed before. I believe that you gave the endorsement in good faith as you seem to have others interest in mind. maybe someone will read this story and help him out. GOD works in mysterious ways. I do not think that you should be held responsible for another persons actions. If only people did what they promised to do, and that’s a topic for another day.
Eric: I belive that you are not responsible for
this, you give a huge value with your lessons and tip’s , worth more than this $1344.-
I feel sorry for this man, but this is life
and the copywriter put away his pen for good I hope!
Wow, most people gave restaurant analogies. I had not considered the babysitter-murder scenario!
Hello Eric,
You are not responsible to pay out of your own pocket. Your opinion to me is justified; but you can offer him a money making product of their choice that you offer …just because he’s your customer…and out of the kindness of your heart you appreciate any future business from them and (don’t have any control over other’s actions; but being a valued customer?? Is he?…this is the benefit for this one. May he re-coups what he lost with that and move forward. In life you win & lose..who you stay connected with, listen to, and follow is what matter’s most and determines your condition afterwards..of the type of person you become: bitter or forgiving, successful or failure. Last statement: Many circumstances can be used as a platform to wittness with HIS wisdom and by HIS Love…may we Christians be sensitive to HIS Spirit’s leading.
Hi Eric – you are not responsible for information you passed in good faith. We are all responsible for our own actions and it is up to the individual to check with whom they do the business and the agreement they enter into. The guy who wrote to you seems a nice chap from the tone of his letter and if you explain to him he would probably be understanding than not. Good Luck
Hi Eric:
This is an unfortunate situation and I am of the opinion that you are in no way responsible. You gave a recommendation based on the work this writer did for you in the past, but I don’t think you PAID him prior to his completion of the job. An that was where he went wrong.
This situation will result in you creating a DISCLAIMER whenever recommendations are sought. His dissatisfaction lie with the writer. However, $1400.00 to loose in the present economy,is a great loss, so if you do the “gentleman’s agreement”, you could give him the refund, and trust me, because of what you did, he could be your one man “traffic go-getter”
The decision is all yours, and whatever it is, I will respect it.
Beverlie
Your not liable and monetary compensation would set an undesirable precedent.You could perhaps offer to write some copy as a good will gesture
Well Eric, the fact you’re even entertaining this question, tells us there’s obviously a part of you feeling inclined to refund his money. And putting myself in your shoes, my gut would most likely be sending the same messages. Lets face it Eric…Who wants to feel responsible, either directly, or even indirectly, for someone else’s misfortune? I don’t, and I’m sensing you don’t either. If any part of your gut…aka (Heart/Conscience), is telling you to reimburse, then I think you should. Having said this, I’m sure you’ve already considered the can of worms you’re potentially opening by doing so. You may have to be much more selective about your recommendations in the future, clearly state disclaimers, etc.. It’s sad to think anyone would try taking advantage of you in the future because of this incident. But I’m sure the possibility is very real. Good luck 🙂
No..you are not liable
We all have to accept responsiblity for our own actions and decisons. Your reco was a well meaning guideline nothing more…that you have since seen prudent to retracted.
We have all (? the ones that are Doers amongst us anyway) been caught out over paying or getting ripped off… Sadly the internet is totally awash with businesses that underdeliver…..particularly in the aera of support
It is good to be concerned (it is right and proper and the christian way) you maybe able to “help and “Support” Dragutin in some way..But Liable …No Way
That solves it all right there. 😉 Your terms protected you, and if you do any type of refund, in goods, cash, or kind, you would be setting a dangerous precedent. I agree with Anita 100%.
After a careful reading of your description of what took place with regard to the writer you recommended, in my opinion the series of circumstances with respect to timing was unfortunate. That was not your fault. I agree with most of the others who replied to your request that you are not responsible legally or morally for what happened. I think that David, the first respondent , said it best.
Eric, I agree with the vast majority — you’re not liable and the offended party should be directed to appropriate legal channels. But perhaps making some kind of peace-offering, such as allowing him to choose one of your products, will placate the fellow and satisfy your wish to make things right.
I do not believe that you are responsible, nor should you feel morally culpable.
A simple solution, for outsourcing services such as this would be to require that they use something like Guru.com’s escrow service (it protects both parties).
Further, it may interest some of your readers to know that I sought and obtained a full refund of an expensive software application I bought from a foreign company late last fall. The Vendor had refused to allow a refund, and Plimus sent a number of fully-automated emails to both me and the vendor, but obviously didn’t want to get in the middle of it. Eventually Visa (credit card provider) issued the refund (within 45 days of their involvement). I approached Visa through my issuing bank, with whom I have a solid relationship, and I assume that they may have applied pressure on Visa to issue the refund.