Yesterday I received an email from a reader who had hired a copywriter based on my recommendation in late 2009.
Unfortunately, he was not happy with the sales letter he received from the copywriter, and the copywriter allegedly did not complete the work he had been paid to do.
About seven weeks ago, the reader wrote to me about his negative experience with this copywriter. It was the second complaint I had received from readers regarding this copywriter, and I had also received an additional warning from a fellow marketer.
At that point, I pulled my endorsement of the copywriter, and made it clear on my website that I am no longer recommending him.
Now yesterday I received another email from the reader…
Hi Eric,
I hope you are well.
Just to let you know I contacted BBB.org, PayPal and my credit card company.
The business of [redacted] is not registered with BBB.org.
The complaint with PayPal can only be filed within 45 days from the date of payment and that period is exceeded due to [redacted] procrastination and the story telling.
My credit card company is not able to provide the refund of $1344 I paid to [redacted] for the letters he never wrote as there is an involvement from PayPal between them and the vendor.
I acted on your recommendation to choose services of [redacted] as you described him trustworthy and reliable.
From all people and businesses who gave testimonials on his web site only one responded on my enquiry.
The others simply ignored my enquiry and some of the have URL error.
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency and am asking you to provide me with the full refund.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards
Dragutin
As you’ve seen, the reader is asking me to compensate him for the payment he made to the copywriter.
I should mention that I do appreciate his polite tone. If he had sent a “flame” I wouldn’t be featuring it here.
I asked him for some additional information, and here is a copy of his communications with the copywriter:
PDF of email correspondence [redacted]
So there are really two questions at stake here…
1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote as an affiliate?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
The ramifications are very significant, because the answers to these questions affect not only this situation but also…
– Everything I endorse/promote.
– Everyone who endorses anything or promotes something as an affiliate.
This is why the Internet marketing world was in a tizzy last December when the FTC rolled out their new guidelines for endorsements and testimonials.
So let’s answer the first question, as it applies to this situation:
Am I legally liable?
According to the FTC, endorsers may be liable for false or unsubstantiated claims made in an endorsement, or for failure to disclose material connections between the advertiser and endorsers.
Let’s talk about false or unsubstantiated claims.
If I had blindly promoted the product/service without checking it out first (as many affiliates do in this industry, and as I have done in the past on occasion), then I believe I might bear liability if my claims did not match up to the product. Let that be a word of warning to all affiliate marketers: You ARE responsible for what you say/write.
However, in this case I was speaking from first-hand experience. I had actually paid this copywriter $197 to write a sales letter for me, and I felt that the product I received was a good value for the amount that I had paid.
Therefore, my claim was substantiated, and I made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers.
Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections.
I initially wrote my recommendation in October of 2009, which was prior to the new FTC guidelines going into effect.
When the new guidelines went into effect on December 1st, I added an “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement” to my website, which I believe satisfies this requirement. If I am shown otherwise, then I might need to get more aggressive about disclosing material/affiliate relationships.
In this particular case, I never did get paid an affiliate commission for the sale in question. So I’m not sure how that affects the material connection from a legal standpoint. Am I still an affiliate if I’m getting scammed too?
OK, so in my opinion I am NOT legally liable for the copywriter’s failure in this situation.
But that brings us to the next question…
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth, and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
If I were him, I probably would have written the same email to me.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
From the look of my dear reader’s emails, he’s gone through the denial and anger stages, and has now come around to the bargaining stage. Like I said, I’d be bargaining too.
I see this from two perspectives… justice, and compassion.
From the justice standpoint, I believe it would not be right for me to give him the refund out of my own pocket. Would justice be served by this? No.
Now… IF I had been paid a commission, I do think partial justice could be served if I refunded that commission to the customer. But in this case, there is no commission to speak of.
From a compassion standpoint, I’d love to help out my reader.
If we were talking about a much smaller dollar amount, I probably would have just offered to pay for it (or more likely… I wouldn’t have gotten an email about it in the first place). But $1344 is a decent chunk of change.
We all know the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If it were the other way around, would I want him to pay for my refund out of his pocket? Yes I would, at this moment in time. But after more time has passed, I would most likely come to the conclusion that justice would not be served by an otherwise innocent affiliate paying me out of his own pocket.
In other words, my sense of justice would eventually trump my desire for recompense. (The two are not mutually exclusive. The victim should be paid back in order for justice to be served, but taking the money from the wrong person is not the solution)
So I do not think it is my moral obligation to pay for the customer’s loss…
But I want to know what YOU think!
I told the customer I would post this on my blog, and take my reader’s opinions into consideration.
I want to know:
What would you do in my situation, and why?
I am absolutely willing to pay a full refund to the customer if the arguments in his favor outweigh the arguments against.
I wish I could just err on the side of compassion, but obviously such a precedent could open me up to a lot of headaches and abuse due to other customers taking advantage of my leniency. If that is the outcome, then I will probably change some things about how I run my business.
Post your comments below. Please do not “trash” me OR the customer or even the copywriter. That’s not the point of this. At the same time I am not necessarily looking for support. I want your honest opinion, even if you are not on my side.
Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers. So let us know what you think.
Thanks for your input!
UPDATE: I’ve now posted the conclusion to this saga here:
Hi Eric,
I am grateful for your honesty, transparency and the efforts you have made to raise this matter in the open.
After all I very much appreciate the comments from many people whose life path crossed with yours and to some extent mine too.
Opinions will vary but one thing is in common:
It resonates the magnitude of respect for you as a person and a professional.
There are only few people out there who are willing to help,listen,express gratitude,educate and leave the legacy.You are definitely one of them.
Eric you are not liable for my misfortunes.The onus is on [redacted] and his consciousness.
I leave you all with a proverb:”Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars”
Wishing you all abundance in health and prosperity.
Kind regards
Dragutin
Eric,
What a dilemma you have here. In my opinion I feel from a legal standpoint you owe this person nothing as you promoted their product in good faith and had no control of the outcome in the bargaining of these third parties. However as being an ethical marketer I would suggest this from a justice side of the argument paying him anything from your pocket justice would not be served. From the ethical and compassionate area it’s a whole new ball game. If I were in your shoes I think I would offer this person 50% of his losses. The reason why is you actually did endorse this person. I think morally and ethically you will feel you have done the right thing. If he can somehow recover the other 50% from this person he was scammed by perhaps with even some help from you. I feel justice would be served as well. If nothing else I feel you would have offered the very best possible solution to your readers nightmare…
Like most people we have all been scammed and that is very sad. However, when it comes to purchasing services it would be wise for us to request the service provider to do a free or $10 sample in order that we may evaluate whether or not we engage them. Test out three providers as least by giving them a small job to do of say 400 words each (setting out the parameters, etc.)and then make a decision as to who will be doing the work. If they are not prepared to do a free or $10 sample copy for you, then do not engage them. It may be long winded, however a safeguard is better than tears, and we have all had the experience of tears.
Regarding Paypal – I have had excellent interactions with paypal who have just refunded without question on fraulent behaviour, and very quickly indeed, for this I have been most grateful. Yes, it was within the given time scale, although I did not know that timescales existed, etc. at that moment.
Now on to Eric’s situation, even though Eric feels obligated to an extent with regards the recommending of the copywriter he is not responsible for the agreement or actions between the two parties. However, a free ebook or something would ease the way a little for the purchaser and knotched up as a lesson learnt for us all, prayerfully.
I do feel sorry for purchaser – however, he is going to make much more money than this if he persistes and should put the loss down to sleep and move on.
Stella
I too have been ripped off by the copy writer.. I hired him as I am not a very good copywriter my self but the sales letter I got was aweful, would he rewrite it.. of course not.. luckily for me I got annoyed quickly and got on the phone with my credit card company explained what had happened and they issued a charge back.
Its not your fault the the copy writer does good work for big names in the industry then rips off the rest of us.. NOT your fault at all.
I say do not offer any money but offer to get all your readers in the same boat together and file a class action suit against the copy writer. Include yourself for pain and suffering.
Pat
Eric,
As an addition to some cash compensation maybe you could write some copy for him. This may be just what the Doctor ordered and perhaps better than what any cash compensation could provide. I think all would be settled satisfactorily. You could feel good about helping someone out. This reader would be happy because he would have what he really wanted in the first place. The e marketing world would not have to go through another rules change from all the alphabet agencies and all would be well…
Bringing in justice and morals and ethics obscure the fact that the reader is, I assume, an adult who is responsible for his/her choices. That the recommendation comes from you is not a release from responsibility and the consequences of his/her decisions. You can commiserate but under no circumstances are you obliged to compensate.
Tom
Eric, i shall share a real case that actually happened in singapore a few years ago. It was a sad case that resulted in the death of a woman and serious illness of a few others. The death resulted after the woman had consumed some weight loss pills that had severelly damaged her liver. Another woman survive after a successful liver transplant. To cut the long story short. The court verdict – manufacturer was found guilty of the product quality, the imported (distributor) was liable because it was determined that due diligence and prudency were absent. He was evetually slappned with a fine by the court and sued by the injured and deceased family
Hi Eric,
I see the majority of the people are on your side.It wasn’t your fault that the writer did
a bad job for Dragutin.
It is also morally wrong for you to make the refund out of your own pocket either.
What you can do is meet the writer you recommended
and try to settle the matter peacefully.
This poor guy Dragutin really needs your help
now.
Good luck,
Wong
it’s not your fault Eric. You just recommended the person because he did a good job for you, if he fails to deliver to other person you’re responsible for it.
IMO if you didn’t recieve compensation, you’re not liablity… technically. In this case it’s more about you, rather than him. It’s an opportunity to change your business model that may just take you to the next level. When I build a business system I build in my own set of financial punishments/incentives into the system so it becomes self-policing. For example, if possible I will stay at the Hilton Hotel chains because their policy is to “refund your money if they did ANYTHING wrong.” When you come to make a claim at checkout they will try to negotiate but if you stick to your guns you will get a full, relatively cheerful refund.
If you feel you dropped the ball even slightly, then decide how much you should lose to teach you a lesson to be more vigilant. If Hilton’s model will bankrupt you, then you have some questions to ask yourself.
Eric,
In my opinion, opening this situation up for discussion with your List is a lesson in Marketing in and of itself.
Personally, I have gained more from watching and studying your actual methodology and practice than any recommendation you have ever made. In my humble opinion, any recommendation which is offered with compensation requires vetting by the person who decides to purchase a product or service. Especially a Service because it is open for subjective human error and unreasonable expectations from both parties in question which offers only disappointment and disagreement. A Product is less likely to backfire on an Affiliate because it is more of a cut and dry transaction.
Legally, Morally or even Ethically you are in the clear… and with as much value as You offer us (Your List) on a Daily basis, simply through the execution of your business model and method, I think a refund is a silly notion. There is no quick and easy, lemon squeeze solution, product or spiel that beats sweat equity and elbow grease.
Thanks for another great lesson in Marketing 101.
Eric, You are not responsible for that. But I Agree with Lawton Howell said, While no legal liability may exist, your character and reputation could be impacted way beyond this incident. So Instead of discussion who’s right or wrong, I suggest you give this guy not a “fish” ($1344 is a big chunk) but give him the way how to recoup his “$1344 lost money”. I believe it can help him feeling better.
Dear Eric,
From a business point of view Eric, I do not see a need to compensate him but, since you recommended him and this man has abdicated the need for his own checking, and depended on you known Christian integrity and decency, I would consider paying him , perhaps not the full amount but an amount you could happily agree upon. If a man asks you to walk a mile , walk two. Better for you to have a loss than for there to be any slur against your excellent Christian name Eric. I think the Lord would rapidly make it up to you somehow. May be this man is going thru a very tight time and has been burnt one to many times before. Blessed are the mercifull for they shall see God, from memory seems to be coming to mind. Remember also the incidence when Peter defended his master and said to the tax collector, words to the effect, Sure my master pays the tax- he’s a good guy!, when in fact Jesus had walked straight past the tax table. When Peter arrived at the house Jesus prevented Peter from entering and asked him a question.Peter quickly replied that the aliens pay the tax, and Jesus added, “Then the children of the kingdom are free, but lest they be offended, since you’ve put your foot in it, go and cast in your line and the first fish will supply you the coin with which to pay for both, the important thing with the Lord was lest they be offended. Jesus knew the tax was not His obligation but His consideration was for the offended tax collector whom Peter had given erronious information to, – a bit like you don’t you feel? I wonder what is going on with this unreliable copywriter???? Ask the Lord. Is he deliberately causing mischief for you? Best wishes Eric.
I also think that the customer should have searched online to find out additional information about the copywriter – even if there was a smaller amount of money implied! And also I think you have to consider ALWAYS the date where the recommendation was made – it is a service and not a product(which remain always the same product). A service quality could change in time. So – my opinion is that you are not at all responsible for the lost money of this person.
I like very much what you are doing – and also this topic you bring here I think is very valuable for all that are implied in internet business. Thank you.
Hi Eric, On reading both stories, I want to say this. Your recommendations were honest based on the work done for you on your satisfaction. However, that is just it, recommandations, the judgement is on the person taking or rejecting it. I had a similiar incident on the repair of my car for a secondhand part replacement, where the mac did inform me that there is no garaunteed although did recommand the part.The part however did not work properly. Although I accepted his recommendation the risk was soley mine. The same situation applies here although you made a recommandation on good faith, you cannot see the workmanship made to others by same person. Therefore it is not your fault and payment should not be paid.
Recommending service offered by a person can only hold water as of that time. As anything can happen to person socially or economically as the character of a human being is not constant but has potential for both good and evil. However, a customer making a decision is their sole responsibility and they should understand business i.e. any business not just internet biz has potential risks or profits. If they lose after exhausting all avenues then they should place it on the balance sheet next to bad and doubtful debts.
In as much as we use social media, one should know internet marketing is a business like any other and is not personal.
If I pay a consultant to help design a road map for my business (online or offline) if it fails should the consultant (person/firm) bear the burden of my losses? Of course not.
If the customer who was swindled is looking to raise some more capital for his business let him/ her probably with the help of Eric create a fundraising page where we can contribute to get him back on his feet.
Any monetary help to the customer should be compassion based and not out of obligation
just a thought
Dear Eric,
Based on your explanations above, I do believe you acted/decided correctly based on several standpoints, legal, moral/ethics, compassion/understanding, etc. I did see your earlier recommendation on the copywriter based on your good experience with him at the time then the warning not to go with it anymore because the copywriter didn’t live up to his promise with the others as he did with you, so came your warning. What was the circumstances the copywriter was into why he didn’t live up to the expectation? But whatever it is, there should be no excuse of not delivering, more especially if the product/service is already being endorsed by respected IMers like you. Anyone can’t afford to under-deliver. I do believe that successful long-lasting internet marketing is based on honesty and truth like what you’re doing.
Eric, you’re not responsible to pay for the product in question. However, I think there is a moral obligation to pursue the matter with the copywriter, whom I consider him “dead in his business” if he doesn’t come out and redeem himself from this.
Of course you’re not responsible! At the end of the day it was the readers choice to take your recommendation without researching it thoroughly for himself. You cannot be held responsible for someone elses laziness in my opinion, you are not out to run your readers businesses for them. No offence intended to the reader, but if we all acted on everything which was recommended to us without taking the time to research whether it is the right way to go for us personally we would all be £1000s out of pocket.
Similarly to what other readers have written, if, for example, I recommended a restaurant to a friend because I had had an amazing experience there, but she went and got food poisoning, I would not expect her to come banging on my door to be compensated for her meal and medical costs!
If you recommended him in full knowledge that he was going to act unprofessionally then that would be a different story. However you acted in good faith and if you refrained from recommending people or products you found worked well, just in case they didnt work for someone else, we may all be missing out on opportunities!
We all need to take responsibility for the decisions we make. I am sure said reader would feel differently if things were the other way around!
Hi Eric.
I don’t think you are legally nor moraly responsible to refund this person.
Your reccomendation was NOT to him alone. If everyone that saw your reccomendation want some form of refund from you, you will be bankcrupt in a few minutes if you decide to refund those people.
Now, since I followed your lessons for a long time now, you have become a trusted person in my eyes. However even by endorsements you cannot be held liable for those people’s actions to others.
If you still feel in some way responsible, you may think about giving him only a percentage of the amount he is asking from you. The percentage I will leave up yo you.
I do hope this will help you in you decision making.
Have a super day to you and your family.
You are not responsible. You’re only responsibility is for transactions between you and another person. You have no responsibility for the actions of another person in a transaction to which you are not a party. Your recommendation was honest, even if other people might disagree. You could not control the terms of the agreement between those two parties. Why should you be responsible because he decided to overpay or pay up front.
Hi David,
According to me the client that lost his money is not willing to pay also for legal representation, as the copywriter could be also broke, and from this point of view he wouldn’t see any of his money back. Not only – he will most probably have to pay even more for a legal representative…
Hi Eric, you used the copywriter and were satisfied with his service and you passed on your thoughts with all good intention. The fact that the copywriter failed to give good service to somebody else is unfortunate, but not your fault. You have absolutely no obligation to provide recompense for somebody elses’ shortcomings. Best regards Alfred.
Hi Erc,
I would think about my reputation first, and all the rest comes second.
And even if you are not legaly obliged to refund the payment, you could do one of these two:
1) Write the copy letters yourself for the guy who followed your recommendation and lost his cash
2) Pay him the cash he lost, even if you are not responcible, or obliged.
This will make you stand out as a very honest and conserned for his custommers marketer, and your reputation will soar even more.
Place a “NB” on your sites, stating that no matter who, and/or what you recommend, people should be aware that you are not guaranteing the results, and caveat emptor always.
My 2 cents
Addendum (and useless comment):
Not that it really matters, but you have prolly lost him either way I think.
While you may feel morally responsible I cannot see any reason why you should be the one compensating a person for dealing with somebody else.
If this were the case, all recommendations of any kind, by anybody, could be disastrous financially. Movie critics, restaurant critics, tons of review websites, and much more.
“Word of mouth” is known as the best advertising a person or business could have. Becoming responsible, financially, for that “word of mouth”, would be a free world disaster.
No, you are not responsible. $1344 paid up front! No way would I ever pay that to an unknown (recommendation or not) … trust is a 2 way street. A person is responsible for their own business transactions. Anybody who has been in this business for any decent length of time has experienced some disappointment along the way.
I’ve been in the IM business for 20 years and have had my fair share of disappointments – such is the nature of dealing with the unknown, the digital entity, the decision to trust that the stranger I am dealing with is what they say they are and can do what they say they can do; but I did not blame somebody else for my lack of action to ensure a satisfactory transaction.
Live and learn. Let him licks his wounds and move forward with an new entrepreneurial experience.
Eric..
This has more layers to it than meets the eye. I hope you don’t mind if I lift the curtain a little bit here as I see it.
1. You obviously are pretty miffed at Mr. C., that you have been put in this position, and while you don’t think you are responsible for the refund (correct), you are trying to help the customer and future potential customers out .. with this thread, as a warning despite….
2. You may or may not realize that you’ve opened yourself up potentially to Mr. C. who could claim you are casting aspersions on him publicly. This was bold of you, admirable that you took that risk on behalf of your readership.
3. You are stimulating excellent, productive discussion, creating stronger bonds with your
“Eric’s Tips” readers.
Good stuff
Todd
Lol Eric
I typed out a massive reply to you and previewed it did some edits went to save and then seemed internet crashed 🙁
Oh well – cut a long story short
I think you are not resposible ethically morally etc.
I was impressed that you went to all this trouble and in my eyes it adds immensely to your credibility.
Having said that if you are in a position to and maybe want to go the extra mile (I know its a pain)
You could offer maybe something up to the sum of… (maybe even some one to one tuition?) _ I only mention that because if I was in his position if that was done for me I know I’d be really happy!
Anyway keep doing what you are doing for the rest of us please!
PS If you are still not sure – try this – decide on two outcomes – flip a coin – if the outcome is one you are totally happy with and at peace about then go with that if not you know the other!!
Hope this helps
Kind regards
Ken
Eric,
Two years ago I paid $400 to a guy who never wrote the report he was supposed to. Bad souvenir.
The guy had a testimonial from a very respectable IM guru on his site. When I got back to this guru with my story he said : “oh you know, I wrote this testimonial long ago…”
I think you are not responsible but at the same time, you have a responsability when you make a recommendation to your readers and your clients.
I can remember how frustrated I was and how alone I felt when this thing happened. Maybe you should do something for your reader. You should not ignore him and let him alone with his problem
I think that you should not pay the refund but it would play on my mind so I would offer to get the work done for him as you will have many contacts in your internet marketing world and it would not hurt your pocket to much to resolve it.
Eric,
If I understand your comments the FTC modified the rules after your event. So in my opinion you have the old rules to follow. In addition not all companies belong the the BBB and that does not mean they have a problem but maybe a shortage of money. Unless I missed it you did not indicate in your disclosure that you are not liable for actions of affiliates acting on your belief of good performance. Receiving no payment for your recommendation show honest advice. It is my believe that you are not liable even though you may feel a moral obligation.
Walter
Hi Eric,
I am sorry that an honest person yourself have found yourself in this position but at the same time, I think its high time marketers who endorse other marketers start learning lessons from this. I once paid for a software that was meant to generate money on autopilot but was so disappointed with it that within 3 days of buying it I asked for a refund, and you guessed it, there was no support and were not willing to refund my money although he had promised 60 days money back guaranteed, so I contacted the marketer who forwarded this scum to me and asked them to contact them for me for refund, and immediately they did that, I got my refund back.
My question is, are you able to contact this person and let him know what position he has put you through and that you are being asked to refund money that you had no dealings with?
I am just hoping he might respond to you rather the person asking for refund to keep his dignity if he has any to keep.
What everyone should learn from this never endorse a product unless you have actually used yourself and it is exactly as it says in the box otherwise you will find yourself in this same position again. These days I delete any marketer who is selling to me because I very well know they have not actually tried the product, the fact that I am on their list, they just bombard me with other people’s offers and that is disgusting. The funny thing is, you can receive offers of one product from several of the so called gurus and that’s when you run and not look back. I should stress although, always do your own research of the product before buying.
I put a page on all my blogs that states I have affiliate relationships that offer various products and services. If I can I try and evaluate those products and services before recommending them but I still believe that the responsibility for anything offered lies with the supplier. Different people have different expectations so whether they will be satisfied with what they get is down to their personal perspective. On that basis if you make a recommendation that they follow then it is up to them to ensure they get what they want and if they don’t they need to take that up with the supplier not the reviewer. Amazon put reviews on many of their products but never heard of anyone going to the reviewer asking for their money back.
Bottom line is they are responsible for their own actions and purchases.
This is one of the biggest reasons why most people fail online…or anything for that matter.
Did the university you attended let you try out college and then pay only if you actually got a good solid job like everyone promised you you would get if you went to school?
Point 1. The answer is NO full stop …and you are not liable for any transactions involving a recommended and or promoted 3rd Party, as harsh as this may seem.
Point 2. Is that the individual concerned should continue to pursue the vendor for some form of mutual compensation – which can be agreed upon, if at all possible?
By the way Eric, on a happier note your lessons are GREAT! We may have much to discuss in the near future upon completion of your lessons.
In addition, I have NO problems whatsoever, recommending your lessons in the future and beyond…
All the very best
Jonathan
If a friend was looking for a new (fill in the blank here) – I’ll say a curling iron, and you said “Hey I got one last week at Target, and I love it. Heats up really fast!” and they go buy one, but the one they pick up is defective – how could that be your fault? The sizing is wrong (big conglomerate, small item) but the principle is the same. You did nothing wrong.
But since you seem to want to help the guy out, maybe there is something you could do rather than give him the money. Maybe you know of another copywriter that maybe owes you a favor? Maybe you know of a lawyer who just might like to take on something like this for free or for cheap? Maybe there is an indirect way you could help that would ease your conscience without setting a precedence for other IMers who make a recommendation.
Eric,
I agree with the consensus, and I don’t think you’re responsible to refund the money this person spent. I think we all have to take personal responsibility for the choices we make and the people we work with, regardless of the recommendation source.
With that said, I love the idea of offering to help by personally providing a portion of the sales letter work he’s looking for, with clear boundaries around revision(s).
You seem to have a great heart and you’re definitely a “good dubie” among IMers.
Thanks for the high value you provide, all the time.
Best,
Kate
(P.S. I have a policy of paying only 50% up front with a clearly written scope of what’s to be delivered. The remaining upon delivery.)
Hi Eric,
You were not a party to the transaction and therefore in my opinion, you are not liable and should not give this man the money. Before he forked over the money he should have had a signed agreement stating what each party would be responsible for, including deadlines, and how much would be paid for such services.
Hope this helps.
Debi Konnerth
Are you liable? I would say NO. What is the ethical thing to do? Do you have morals or principals by which you Eric, live by in life? If you don’t tell the guy to go screw himself, and all of the rest of us, your faithful, will probably jump on his bandwagon. YOU promoted it Eric, PONY up, pay the guy the bucks. It’s not like you can’t afford it. YOU….go after the copywriter….YOU….make sure he never works again…..YOU….see to it he starves to death….if you have MORALS and PRINCIPALS, something you may want to teach your kids. I always thought it was BS the way you “guru’s” promote everyone else’s crap just to get your own shit on their website. And then when it backfires it’s “do you, my readers, think I’m liable”? You won’t pay him Eric, you know why? Your a “guru WEASEL” out to make every buck you can, no matter who gets stepped on. Have a Wonderful life!!
Let me first state that only legal action resulting in a decision by a court should be the ultimate decisive factor. However, all of us give referrals/recommendations for services and/or products that we have had a good experience, either with a person, a product, a particular company. Ex. Carpet cleaner, restaurant, copy writer, plumber, fence company, dog sitter, etc. as the list is endless. It’s impossible to think everyone will have the great experience I had with whomever or whatever. I simply say I have used, eaten at, etc. and was pleased with the results. I do not give raving testimonials as I know things can happen or be experienced differently by someone else. Doctor’s refer you to a specialist everyday as an example. I do not believe anyone should be liable for referring/recommending unless they go way overboard to essentially give a personal guarantee of satisfaction, which of course would be a very ignorant and foolish action to take. If you recommended someone based on you satisfactory experience with no extravert guarantee there is NO WAY YOU ARE LIABLE in my opinion. If you are then we all are liable for any referral/recommendation we give to anyone which occurs often, probably millions of times per hour on this planet. You are a caring and compassionate person and I can understand your feelings, but Eric your just another person who had a good experience and made a referral. God Bless you for your concern.
Eric, You are not legally or “morally” or “ethically” liable to refund the money to the claimant.
There’s big difference between a pure recommendation (which is really nothing more than a testimonial) and a recommendation which is actually an inducement or misrepresentation made carelessly or with intent to induce someone to do something which leads to a loss that could have been (or was) foreseen.
Regards, Stephen Strydom
In my opinion the most important intervening element between your recommendation & the purchase was the point at which the buyer actually made an independent decision to buy from this fool. No matter what “s..t happens”
Personally, if I were going to be spending that kind of money, I would have researched a few different copywriters before deciding who to give the work to. I currently write distance learning Accounts and Payroll courses for various colleges and do some copywriting of brochures, articles, advertisements etc. I never invoice a client until the work is done and signed off to the client’s satisfaction, I never take up-front fees unless there is a specific expense attached to the work (such as publishers fees or similar).
It’s like any other business transaction, you may have to pay a retainer fee or a small percentage of upfront royalties, but in most cases you will not pay the full amount due, if anything at all, until the work is completed to your satisfaction.
Having studied UK business and contract law, where there is a recommendation or endorsement of another party this relationship is only recognised where commissions or some other form of benefit exchanges hands, in the form of finders fees or similar.
Where a recommendation is made ‘in good faith’ but no benefits for such arise from it, then the party making the recommendation has no liability for the standards of work of the recommendee.
Perhaps US contract law is different from UK law, but for the most part; it’s common sense really.
If my neighbour told me I should hire a specific plumber to fix my bath tap and it turned out that the plumber didn’t know a bath tap from a stop-cock, I wouldn’t be able to recoup my money from neighbour because she recommended him. I might have a slight chance of getting some of my money back if she’d taken a back-hander from the plumber to recommend him but the most likely scenario would be that I would have to keep pursuing the plumber himself and I’d no longer trust my neighbour’s recommendations.
I don’t know how contract law works in the US but, while I feel sorry for the reader in question; it isn’t just or right to pursue someone who has not benefitted in any way from your transactions with a third party.
When you are endorsing someone’s work, you are saying that the person did a good job for you and you were happy to part with your cash for the job done. That’s all you are saying, you are not vouching for all of that person’s standard of work and ethics.
Before parting with any large sum of money, you need to be sure you are getting the best for your cash.
When it comes to copywriters, you should ask to see some of their published work and you should always retain some of the fee at least until the final piece of work is what you want (assuming you have been asked for an upfront fee, but this should be negotiated before the work is commissioned).
It is no fun losing money under any circumstances but you cannot hold someone else liable just because they made a recommendation ‘in good faith’; this is trying to take the easy option because you are having trouble getting recompense from the offending party; that is not justice, it’s ‘passing the buck’.
My thinking on the matter is as follows:
Firstly, from a legal and moral point of view,
you are not responsible(as all agree).
Secondly,if you decided to accede to the request for payment from a Christian and compassionate stand point,it would have been wiser to do this privately to avoid others cashing in on your generosity.
At any rate, if you paid the$1344(is there proof?), it would appear like the acknowledgement of guilt on your part. This cannot be as we are not responsible for the choices of others, being free moral agents.
Eric you are not liable for this loss. We all should do our own due diligence before we purchase any product or service and not buy just on a referral. We need to remember: what one persons finds as acceptable may not be acceptable to another person.
Your reader should use other means to obtain a refund… not from you. You are not liable.
Eric, you can’t be responsible for the effort or lack of by another IMer. I understand your position I would also feel badly. I suggest you contact the IMer and tell him your feelings on this subject, that you have taken away your recommendation of him, and you feel that he should make good.
The buyer should not have paid his entire fee in advance of receiving the end product. have you seen the product? Is it bad? There are always two sides to every story.
Nan
Eric: The fact that you have spent this amount of time on this (in my opinion) unfounded claim speaks well of your sense of fairness and your business ethics.
However, if you were to pay him, out of a sense of empathy, you are not doing him or any other affiliate any favors. By paying him, you are enabling his desire to throw this off on someone else, and not take personal responsibility; and if you paid, you are potentially setting a legal precedent that affects all affiliates across the internet.
Sometimes we get “taken”, and from that we learn lessons. This is a lesson for all of us on both sides of this issue. Over $1,300 is a big lesson for this guy – and for most people, but it’s not your responsibility. It’s between him and the copywriter.
The legal issue is what was in the original contract between the two of them. And, I doubt, if there was one, that it included the fact that the affiliate was responsible for the inactions of the parties. That is the other lesson: have a clear contract up front. And for affiliates, it might be necessary to have a written “disclaimer” of sorts attached to the affiliate recommendations that says you are recommending based on your previous experience and you are not responsible for the future actions of the parties. Sounds COLD, but in this case, it could stop this kind of action toward you as an affiliate.
We strive to live in a business world of trust and compassion and sometimes the business world hasn’t caught up with our evolution!
We must all continue to strive for that goal in spite of these interferences. Good luck to you.
thanks.
i agree with you about these,that is what i have in mind to tell.
thanks again.
okeke joshua
pls ia m not geting any thing writh pls can you help me out.okekejoshua@rocketmail.com
pls mail me so i can get a rite imformation.
thanks
mr joshua
eric, the value of what you’ve shared for us will speak of what were your true intentions,
newbie like me, keep coming back here for to gained knowledge inside & outside. though, I feel the same way on him since I have been
scammed too. Now, the more I fall on my knees, the more courageous I get up and move forward.
I believe that, chair is never been made inside the courtroom for you to be judge…coz the truth is your are not responsible for this.
Eric, i think your customer is barking up the wrong tree. Your recommendation was based on your experience with the copy writer and was offered free of charge. If he did not receive the same level of satisfaction from the man in question surely his objection should be with him not you. i drive a Ford, if in speaking to a friend or even a customer i should say that i think Fords are great cars and he should try one and then he does and thinks they stink, i doubt i would reimburse him for his purchase! I think in this case it would have to be an instance of personal choice to follow an opinion or advice, your customer didn’t have to go for help to that particular person, he chose to, it wasn’t part of some package you sold him.
It seems to me that people are too quick to blame and not take responsibility for their own choices. Did you arrange or mediate the arrangement your customer made with the third party? No it was his choice to part with the money without first verifying he was getting value. i do not think that in any legal or moral sense you owe him. But then Eric you have so far proven to be a nice guy and the mere fact that you are asking our opinions and are taking all this time to consider your course of action speaks well of you.
regards
Max