Yesterday I received an email from a reader who had hired a copywriter based on my recommendation in late 2009.
Unfortunately, he was not happy with the sales letter he received from the copywriter, and the copywriter allegedly did not complete the work he had been paid to do.
About seven weeks ago, the reader wrote to me about his negative experience with this copywriter. It was the second complaint I had received from readers regarding this copywriter, and I had also received an additional warning from a fellow marketer.
At that point, I pulled my endorsement of the copywriter, and made it clear on my website that I am no longer recommending him.
Now yesterday I received another email from the reader…
Hi Eric,
I hope you are well.
Just to let you know I contacted BBB.org, PayPal and my credit card company.
The business of [redacted] is not registered with BBB.org.
The complaint with PayPal can only be filed within 45 days from the date of payment and that period is exceeded due to [redacted] procrastination and the story telling.
My credit card company is not able to provide the refund of $1344 I paid to [redacted] for the letters he never wrote as there is an involvement from PayPal between them and the vendor.
I acted on your recommendation to choose services of [redacted] as you described him trustworthy and reliable.
From all people and businesses who gave testimonials on his web site only one responded on my enquiry.
The others simply ignored my enquiry and some of the have URL error.
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency and am asking you to provide me with the full refund.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards
Dragutin
As you’ve seen, the reader is asking me to compensate him for the payment he made to the copywriter.
I should mention that I do appreciate his polite tone. If he had sent a “flame” I wouldn’t be featuring it here.
I asked him for some additional information, and here is a copy of his communications with the copywriter:
PDF of email correspondence [redacted]
So there are really two questions at stake here…
1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote as an affiliate?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
The ramifications are very significant, because the answers to these questions affect not only this situation but also…
– Everything I endorse/promote.
– Everyone who endorses anything or promotes something as an affiliate.
This is why the Internet marketing world was in a tizzy last December when the FTC rolled out their new guidelines for endorsements and testimonials.
So let’s answer the first question, as it applies to this situation:
Am I legally liable?
According to the FTC, endorsers may be liable for false or unsubstantiated claims made in an endorsement, or for failure to disclose material connections between the advertiser and endorsers.
Let’s talk about false or unsubstantiated claims.
If I had blindly promoted the product/service without checking it out first (as many affiliates do in this industry, and as I have done in the past on occasion), then I believe I might bear liability if my claims did not match up to the product. Let that be a word of warning to all affiliate marketers: You ARE responsible for what you say/write.
However, in this case I was speaking from first-hand experience. I had actually paid this copywriter $197 to write a sales letter for me, and I felt that the product I received was a good value for the amount that I had paid.
Therefore, my claim was substantiated, and I made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers.
Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections.
I initially wrote my recommendation in October of 2009, which was prior to the new FTC guidelines going into effect.
When the new guidelines went into effect on December 1st, I added an “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement” to my website, which I believe satisfies this requirement. If I am shown otherwise, then I might need to get more aggressive about disclosing material/affiliate relationships.
In this particular case, I never did get paid an affiliate commission for the sale in question. So I’m not sure how that affects the material connection from a legal standpoint. Am I still an affiliate if I’m getting scammed too?
OK, so in my opinion I am NOT legally liable for the copywriter’s failure in this situation.
But that brings us to the next question…
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth, and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
If I were him, I probably would have written the same email to me.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
From the look of my dear reader’s emails, he’s gone through the denial and anger stages, and has now come around to the bargaining stage. Like I said, I’d be bargaining too.
I see this from two perspectives… justice, and compassion.
From the justice standpoint, I believe it would not be right for me to give him the refund out of my own pocket. Would justice be served by this? No.
Now… IF I had been paid a commission, I do think partial justice could be served if I refunded that commission to the customer. But in this case, there is no commission to speak of.
From a compassion standpoint, I’d love to help out my reader.
If we were talking about a much smaller dollar amount, I probably would have just offered to pay for it (or more likely… I wouldn’t have gotten an email about it in the first place). But $1344 is a decent chunk of change.
We all know the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If it were the other way around, would I want him to pay for my refund out of his pocket? Yes I would, at this moment in time. But after more time has passed, I would most likely come to the conclusion that justice would not be served by an otherwise innocent affiliate paying me out of his own pocket.
In other words, my sense of justice would eventually trump my desire for recompense. (The two are not mutually exclusive. The victim should be paid back in order for justice to be served, but taking the money from the wrong person is not the solution)
So I do not think it is my moral obligation to pay for the customer’s loss…
But I want to know what YOU think!
I told the customer I would post this on my blog, and take my reader’s opinions into consideration.
I want to know:
What would you do in my situation, and why?
I am absolutely willing to pay a full refund to the customer if the arguments in his favor outweigh the arguments against.
I wish I could just err on the side of compassion, but obviously such a precedent could open me up to a lot of headaches and abuse due to other customers taking advantage of my leniency. If that is the outcome, then I will probably change some things about how I run my business.
Post your comments below. Please do not “trash” me OR the customer or even the copywriter. That’s not the point of this. At the same time I am not necessarily looking for support. I want your honest opinion, even if you are not on my side.
Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers. So let us know what you think.
Thanks for your input!
UPDATE: I’ve now posted the conclusion to this saga here:
Well, I have more to say. My best friend owns an animal hospital. When he first opened, he was scared to upset any customers. More often than not he returned more to an upset customer than he got in service. After, a few years and bearing a ton of guilt he realized that the customer was not always right.
It’s a shame and it’s sad when a customer’s dog or cat dies. But the bill is the bill and it is still due for services that were rendered. As such, just because your animal is sick does not mean my friend has to treat your animal for free because you do not have enough money to pay the fees.
I say this, because you don’t really need to give this guy anything. It took a few years, for my friend to take his heart off his sleeve. The funny thing is, when he separated the emotions from the business, he made more money and had less headaches.
There is no need to be mean to this guy, but there is a win/win that does not need to involve you paying for his inability to get better service from the copywriter.
Ok…I’m done ranting now.
Eric,
I’am glad you posted is problem, because I need a good laugh today! Stock market is down and a few stocks I own were recommendations from various places. NO! NO! NO! you don’t owe this guy a dime, and if you do pay him something. You could be starting something big?
Let go of the kite string,
Good Luck,
Barwet
Hi Eric,
My opinion as regards the items you have posted to us. I confirm that I do not know [redacted], nor have I heard about him before now.
While I sympathize with the consumer, and believe he may (or may not) be entitled to a refund, I think he is asking the wrong person. If he is entitled to his refund, it should be addressed to [redacted], and perhaps, in court.
1. The basis of this Transaction is a “Success Attitude”… From a business point of view, every sale must have a Begin and an End date.. There was none of this before money was exchanged. Eric, I don’t care if you tell me that American Airlines are the most “On-Time, Every time Airline”… Before I buy a ticket from them, I will check (a) If they go to my destination, (b) how much for, (c) when they depart (d) when they arrive…. In this case, all I see is a Start date… I don’t see a FINISH date,, as part of the agreement. Perhaps the buyer was in a rush to conclude the deal, and we all can fall into that trap sometimes. Whatever the case may be, You are not liable.
3. Based on the Questionnaire that [redacted] sent. There were too many ambiguous questions, by which he can slide out of any trap. Some of the questions were vague, and it was impossible for the buyer to know exactly what he was asking for… And so, he was able to present an “Internet Sales Letter” in the first place, and thereby claiming to have “delivered” on the job… As odd as that may seem, technically, he has… (And even offered to “help” do “other things”…). In this case, I doubt that even [redacted] will be held liable for this “deception” (IF we can call it that), and for legal reasons, we all have to be absolutely careful not to call him names either… But that’s the way he does business, and you have used his service before. So, you are not liable.
4. Based on an email correspondence from [redacted] to the client, he said
“Ok, thanks. I’m really anxious to get this project going for you so you can start seeing the sales roll into your bank account like all the other big time marketers you’ve read and heard about”…
It is my belief that there was a significant “Mis-communication” about what was on offer, and what was being paid for… In my mind, I feel [redacted] did assume that all he was supposed to write was an Internet marketing Sales Letter, which he “Delivered” on 11 January 2010, to the client, who paid on 2 December 2009… FIVE weeks later… Not bad really, for a Transaction that had no end date. So, you are not liable.
4. OK, so it took him TWO months before the client started asking for his money back. BUT, in order for the client to prove that [redacted] has done “something” wrong, he has to also prove that he did NOT get what he paid for. THAT will be difficult. ALSO, that he did not get it AT THE TIME that was agreed… THAT also will be difficult. But, YOU are not liable for that.
5. You endorsed a product you had used before. I believe this is the basis of your agreeing to become an Affiliate. Your recommendation was not fraudulent, nor misleading. You are not liable.
6. As an affiliate, you only get a percentage of the fee. In this case, you didn’t get paid. BUT, even if you did get paid, the money is yours. If I sign up as an affiliate of Trade-Doubler to promote KLM or Star McDonalds. It is possible for me to have used KLM services with no hitches, or had a great breakfast burger. I have a right to say so, even if I am being paid an Affiliate fee. IF KLM services become faulty after I let people know what service they offer, or if burgers now have cockroaches in them, I should not be held liable for that. BUT If I knew about consistent lapses in service or products, and I set out to deceive the consumer, then I am as much a fraudster and the Seller, and should be prosecuted for making false claims. But this is not the case. so you are not liable.
7. Your text reads.. “Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections….” Your Recommendation was made, I believe, BEFORE OCTOBER 2010… (because we are NOT yet in October 2010..).. so I assume, in October 2009. The FTC Guidelines came into effect 1 December 2009. This transaction took place (when money exchanged hands) on 2 December 2009, AFTER your recommendation, and you (normally, under Law), have so many days to display “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement”… you did that. You are not liable.
As to the Question of what is right, from a Justice and/or Ethical point of view… Do you pay this client.
1. From a Justice point of view. He is not your client. You have done nothing “wrong”, so the question of “Justice” does not arise with YOU. It might arise with [redacted], and I would feel the client aught to attempt to get some, if not all, his money back. BUT from [redacted]. That is the basis of “Justice”. Someone who has done NO wrong, should NOT be made to pay… So, my answer is, I would not make this payment from a Justice point of view.
2. From an Ethical (or Empathy) point of view. This is absolutely up to you. This is a very sad case, really, because of the amount of money involved. And I see the client took certain precautions to check the Recommendations on [redacted] website… and no-one else responded, (other links did not work)… That should have raised alarm bells… As an affiliate, I assume you signed up, so you could make a bit more money.. In this case, you didn’t. But even if you did, the commission is yours, UNLESS [redacted] asks for it. BUT this is NOT a client you personally introduced. He himself claims to have checked other references.. If, like other marketers, you have endless affiliate links, you were not to know that other references were non-responsive, or that you happened to be the “only one” that responded. Even if you have the money to pay this client back, I will seriously suggest you do not. This is because you will open yourself to serious and, perhaps, endless numbers of litigation, and will send the wrong message out to clients who get poor services. That Affiliates should be pursued for the full payment (paid, for instance to KLM, or American Airlines) for services not rendered or poorly rendered. That will be like opening up a can of worms. The possibilities are endless. What would I do? I could not pay the client.
I feel sorry for the client, but I feel if he wishes to pursue this, [redacted] should be taken to court, and let the court decide. But, I do not see what you have done wrong, for a product that was purchased (and delivered, technically). So, I do not feel you aught to pay.
Eric, I am not an Attorney, so I can’t advise on the legal ramifications. But, it would seem that Common Law, would support your non culpability. Your recommendation was in good faith, based on the facts as you personally were aware. Some may not appreciate this, but there are many verses in my Bible, that support this.
Secondly, the agreement was not between you and him.
Third, what about the other party, that he did recieve a recommendation from? Is he trying to collect from him? Is that 4th party liable? And, to what degree?
Fourth, yes I would agree with your feelings of compassion, and the need to keep good will, between you and your readers. But, if you do compensate him. The can of Worms you’ll open for all of us is just unthinkable. You’ll have to let your conscience be your guide.
I just happen to have posted 2 articles on my blog, that I think all IM’s especially Newbies should read, that would cure a lot of these ills of the industry. It all relates to caution and good sense.
I too agree with others that you are not directly responsible.
But indirectly as an excellent human being you should help him to get back his lost amount from the seller.ie you should try to find out ways to contact the seller to get him refund the amount.
Or you should see whether something legally can be done against the seller ( [redacted] ).
Hope every thing gets solved favouring your subscriber .
Thanks
I do not think you have any legal or moral obligation to repay. You might offer to contact the writer on his behalf and tell him you had recommended him and his failure to produce looks bad for you and you will be forced to say you in no way will promote him in the future and will even say you are no longer associated with him on your blog (which you have done). You are not obligated to do this but it might be appropriate.
Hi Eric,
No, I don’t thing you are liable to that. You have good experience with [redacted] so it’s ok you recommend him to others. The problem is when a lot of complaints are coming in, did you stop recommending him? If yes, you are not liable. If no, then morally, you should refund him half of that amount. Actually no matter what, Dragutin always has the responsibility to check things out first before giving the guy the job/project. So a full refund is not necessary because Dragutin should learn a lesson from this.
That’s my thought.
Thanks & regards,
Rick
Apologies, for numbering out of sequence. I should have pressed the Preview button, but pressed the Say it! button instead. Just goes to show you that anyone can make mistakes.
I would suggest speaking briefly with your attorney in reference to the legal perspective, however in answer to your second question…I would say that you already know in your gut what to do. You really don’t need to validate your decisions. I would say to go with what you think and feel is “right”.
If I were in your position I would not had initiated a public post presenting my situation. I would have quietly done what I thought was right and let it go.
I don’t agree that you need to placate this guy. It was a recommendation based upon your past good experience with the copywriter. People are subject to change. You cannot guarantee the reliability of another person.
It is not your resposibility
Thanks
Eric:
Nope: NOT responsible ! Yes, I am quite sure it really burns to be ripped off – but that is life. My perspective may be somewhat unique: I actually HAVE requested a refund from you and you were very agreeable. So, I KNOW you truly DO what you SAY you will do. (Actually, you OVER DID my refund – but I am certainly NOT complaining about that !)
Thanks,
Bill Carey
Eric, since you are not legally obligated for the refunds, now it only voice down to moral and ethic. I do feel for you and your reader who asked for a refund. I have to admit, in a few occasion I do feel like asking for a refund from the one who recommended the product and service.
It doesn’t go down too well for me when I act upon faith from the recommender and some degrees of trust are lost. Out of good faith, instead of refunding the amount, you might want to consider offering the reader a free product of yours. BTW the way you handle it, opening out to the floor and letting your readers voice their opinion is really fantastic move.
So this it will be a lesson to all IMers here, be vigilant on your recommendation. Make sure you use it and proven it before you share with your readers and it doesn’t hurt putting a disclaimer clause.
Cheers
some people like to take advantage if you let them l don’t think you should
Eric,
I am not a lawyer; however, I do know several American lawyers here in Korea.
Naturally, laws differ from country to country, state to state, and circumstance to circumstance.
In my opinion, along with my lawyer friends, you are not responsible for refunding a purchase that someone made based solely on a recommendation from you.
Just like someone else mentioned, if you recommended a mechanic, who had given you good service in the past, and then didn’t provide the same quality service, that is NOT your fault!
You were simply trying to help someone based on your own experience. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with that! If I recommend a restaurant here in Korea, and you don’t like it; I’m certainly not going to pay for your meal. I’m also certain that you would ask me to do so.
Whenever I’ve bought a product specifically from you, or one of your partners, and for whatever reason didn’t like the product; You Promptly refund my money along with an apology that really wasn’t necessary.
Dragutin is completely out of line to ask You to refund his purchase. He needs to realize that these things happen in online business.
I too have been ripped off. I spent $1500.00 on a coaching program that was recommended by another contact, and I knew more about Internet/affiliate marketing than the coach.
Again, I believe that you are not at all responsible; however, if you decide to refund him, in an unnecessary effort, I will contribute out of my pocket, and I’m confident that many of your other members would be willing to contribute.
You have provided such a great, free program, which is one of the best I’ve seen, so I will support you 100%.
Terry
South Korea
Eric, you are not liable for this. This is between the buyer and the seller.
If the shoe were on the other foot and Eric had lost $1344 based on a recommendation from Dragutin, would Dragutin be as eager to refund money to Eric? The real question is whether [redacted] should refund the money he collected from Dragutin, and the answer to that is yes, if [redacted] could not deliver the goods, it is [redacted]s responsibility to make the refund or work out an agreement where he will compensate the buyer by doing future work.
Eric, you have done your part. You have now thoroughly trashed the name [redacted] in all search engines. Since Dragutin did not ask you if [redacted] was good enough for a $1344 deal, but simply jumped to the confusion that, if [redacted] fixed your bicycle OK, he could be trusted to fix an airplane. That was his mistake.
Personally, in a situation like that, after finding out the other side of the story I jump on the crook with both feet, if that is warranted, and assist the victim in getting his money back.
However, donating $1344 to the victim only teaches him to whine, and is going to hurt him a lot more than losing $1344. Sometimes “tough love” really is the best in the long run.
DearWebby
Eric- I feel sorry for the reader but unfortunately we all must take responibility for doing our own due diligence before hiring or outsourcing anything to others. Your recommendation was based on your own experience but even if it were not, I still do not think you are liable. Let’s face it, it is always alot easier to blame someone else for the mistakes we make our our own bad choices. The person requesting this refund from you should have done several things before hiring the copywriter you recommended. 1) He should have done his own due diligence. He should have aksed for the names of other copywriters from others on forums. He should have asked others on the Warrior’s Forum if they had used the copywriter in question. He should have asked the copywriter to provide the name of 4 or 5 clients who have okayed it so he could talk with them about his work. 2) He should have explored the copywriters credentials and professional associations and contacted these associations to determine if he was in good standing and considered credible and professional. 3) He should have proceed cautiously and checked the copywriter out to see if he was a member of the BBB before he hired him. 4) He should have structured the work to be completed in phases at which time the copywriter would be paid for each phase upon its completion to his satisfaction. All phases of the work and the terms of payment and satisfaction should have been spelled out in writing and signed by each party in from of a notary public. If the copywriter would not accept the terms of his agreement then he should have found someone else. 6) He should have asked Paypal for a refund at the 30-day mark, or at least before the 45-days was up, if the project was not on schedule or being performed to his satisfaction. why did he wait with this kind of money on the line and things not going well? 7) He also should know the difference between how using Paypal or his own Credit Card directly are different, and he should have determined what his recourse was with each, where he did not receive what he paid for before using one method over the other. I won’t go on and on here, but suffice it to say that one needs to watch out for their own money and stop trusing everybody so easily. Also, we all need to be better negtiators as far as how we structure our agreements. He really should have had some paperwork in hand regarding this. Lastly, it all comes down to personal responibility and taking responsibility for our own actions, good or bad. Deep down in his heart, this guy knows that you (Eric) are not to blame for his stupidity. However, I trust he has learned alot throughout this ordeal and that will probably serve him very well from here on out. – Mike-
I did not see any point you have to liable for this transaction, even I get scammed experience before like you.
1. You promote as an Affiliate, since affiliate have no liability for the products sold.
2. Ethically, simply You helped the reader to solve his problem and right. I thing you did it.
Paston
I agree with what David had to say.Also the buyer should be aware and check this person out also.maybe Eric you need a disclaimer on your websites.
No its not your responsibility to pay this guy.But I also know how you feel.Cheers.
Eric I just did a quick Google search for “[redacted] copywriter” and with just the first couple of sites and the horror stories on them I would never have sent any money in the first place never mind who may have referenced him. I certainly feel bad for him that he has been given the rearound and probably will never see his money but as you mentioned … you also retracted your refernece after you found out he was becoming unreliable. Even without that statement you are nor liable for what another human being does or doesn’t do. I also wonder why any human would mess their name and credibility up be doing wrong to someone the way [redacted] apparently has done. In my humble opinion … Eric you are not liable.
I’m trying to look at this from both sides. If we substitute a different product – say dinner – for the copywriting services, would you refund someone’s money for a bad dinner on your recommendation? Probably not.
On the other hand, this gentleman was basing his decision on your word as someone he trusts (just one more reason we have to know who we are endorsing!).
I would do two things here. I would add a disclaimer to ALL of my recommendations (paid or not) and tell readers to do their due diligence when hiring anyone. Second, I would contact this copywriter myself and ask him to make good on the contract he had with Dragutin.
Other than that, as much as I hate “passing the buck” and saying something “isn’t my responsibility”, I would have to say that this is not your issue. If you want to make a good faith effort, you can offer him a percentage of his $1344.
I applaud you for putting this out there, and it’s been interesting reading others’ opinions.
I think we all know in our heart of hearts that no one should be held liable for work (or lack thereof) contracted between two independent parties, whether they recommended them as an affiliate, at the office water cooler, or friend to friend. If [redacted] was an actual business partner of yours (in the legal sense of how your business is setup), that would be different, of course.
That said, Dragutin says he contracted with the [redacted] based on your recommendation. I know if I recommended a service provider to someone (even to a stranger on the street) and he got taken advantage of as a result of it, I would feel it my ethical responsibility to try to help restore his loss somehow. Does that mean reimburse him thousands of dollars in cash out of your own pocket? Of course not. But…since Micah has mentioned in several of your videos how great a copywriter you are, would it really be too much to just offer to write the guy one salesletter of the same high quality you would write for yourself and call it even?
Oh, I just noticed something else. From Section 255.0 of the Purpose and Definitions Guidelines..
http://ftc.gov/os/2009/10/091005revisedendorsementguides.pdf
Under Section (c), example 8, paragraph 3.
If you had received a FREE copy of whatever [redacted] was offering, in order for you to claim it was “fantastic”… you are liable. But in this case, you are not.
Hiring an attorney costs money. Sometimes it is best to take the high road. Sounds like he lost at your advice. Surely you have made enough money to help someone who has been scammed. If there is no recourse, what do you think will happen to others????
Hi Eric,
You are not liable. I have wasted money on products and never even asked for a refund from the seller of the product, and I certainly never would ask a recommender of the product for a refund.
The guy should just chalk it up to an expensive lesson and due more diligence before hiring anyone.
I know you are a Christian and want to do what’s right, but don’t lose money on something that you didn’t even make money on.
If anything, offer the guy some free coaching and help him make wiser decisions.
I am not a lawyer and have no idea how a judge would rule on a situation of this kind. But if it came before a jury and I was on it, I would vote in your favor.
If I bought an apple in a supermarket and recommended the supermarket and their current supply of apples as being worth buying, and the person to whom I made the recommendation bought a bad apple, I certainly wouldn’t expect him or her to come to me for the price of the apple if the supermarket failed to refund the purchase price. I see no difference here.
As to your being an affiliate, there is a difference btw one who gets paid for recommendations and one who is recommending due to their own personal experience without recompense, so pre or post the new internet rulings, in my opinion the “affiliate” status doesn’t apply. This is a situation, as you explain it, of one person recommending another in good faith because of his own personal experience.
Moral responsibility isn’t an issue here as I see it. And “compassion” is a sword that could cut you to ribbons at any price and set a precedent that could cause a great deal of harm to not only you, but to others who are marketing on the internet.
But getting back to your original question. Are Affiliates Liable for the Products They Promote or Endorse? I think you need to clearly define “affiliate” in this case, as well as “promote” and “endorse,”
or restate your question as: Is one who functions as an affiliate in internet marketing, legally and/or morally responsible for any and all recommendations made in good faith based on his or her personal experience whether or not he or she is being paid by the party being recommended for his or her recommendation?
My answer would be no, not for any and all recommendations made in good faith.
I am sorry for this person’s pain. But one making a purchase, regardless of recommendations, has to take precautions no matter. One never knows about apples. Caveat emptor.
Why is this so difficult for anyone to accept?
Were is the due diligence before spending money with someone you don’t know. I notice he had no problem checking things out after the fact, and only as a means to get his money back from someone else.
Help me I’ve fallen and I can’t get up! Bullshit!!!
Just another one of life’s lessons – get over it and keep moving forward. Remember, what comes around goes around.
Of course you’re not legally obligated to provide a refund, and doing so in this situation could open a flood gate of issues… especially now that you’ve taken it public. There is a third option, and that is getting with the writer and convincing him that it’s in his best interest to make this right.
I fully agree with others. I don’t see where you are liable . You recommended on good faith, by what he had done for you. You can’t help he didn’t stand up to his promise . The man should not have paid him until the work was done and satisfactory.
Eric,
I read the entire PDF a couple of times as well as thinking about what you said you did. I tried very hard to put myself into your shoes as well as looking at my own life experiences. (My experience is that a Judge will do whatever he pleases, despite the facts – I lost my home when a Judge ignored the only two independent witnesses and changed 15 years of mortgage payments into rent. He found as he thought it should have been, outside the testimony form both parties involved. My entire life’s equity gone as well as any inheritance for my children.) From what I have seen the attorney that twists the truth best and plays the ‘courthouse game’ best will win – stay away from court.
From reading the emails I wonder if English is the first language of either writer.
You stated that as soon as you saw that the writer was not doing what was promised that you dropped your endorsement – this shows something good about your own policies and honesty. There are so many people that will take advantage of honesty that it is important that you not become someone that the customers of others expect refunds from.
Are you legally liable? Considering what I experienced God only knows what a Judge would do – but I believe that you should not be held liable. You saw a problem with the writer and removed your endorsement; you disclosed any relationship when the rules changed. I think you met every reasonable expectation. (A further point: the writer now owes you and thus you are also a victim of their actions). I do not believe you did wrong in any way.
What about ethically? Did the unhappy client go to the writer before of after you dropped your endorsement? Did they understand what they were asking for? (Based on the email exchanges I would have been unhappy too).
Jesus said that “…whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them… Matthew 7:12 in part. You obviously feel something about this or you would not have brought it to such a public forum. You would be perfectly proper to send him a letter that you felt no legal or moral obligation to send him a refund. I have written book and product reviews for over a decade and understand how you might feel conflicted when this person has been taken advantage of. For me, to give an endorsement is to place a part of my reputation on the line. After consideration, if I were you I would:
Write the customer and tell him that you felt in no way a legal obligation to offer him any refund. But that you felt it might be proper to send him an amount from your own pocket in sympathy for his situation, and to assist him in getting his business going – as long as he understands that in doing so you admit no responsibility or legal obligation. This only providing that you truly feel a desire to try and help him salvage something out of the situation. I would not send him the full amount but something between half and 2/3. (You might even have a third party (with no previous connection to the writer) send it. And run what you do by your attorney first so that you do not unintentionally create a liability. If nothing else the disgruntled customer might become a big Eric supporter.
Bob
Who is learning and very happy with your videos and advice!
Well I think the concensus seems to be what I feel that you did nothing to make you responsible other than make a recommendation in good faith. We all do that every day.
In this case you are a well known web marketeer and so the “deep pockets” syndrome comes to play. He has money let him pay. I would personally like to see him exhaust his other avenues of recouping the money before he comes to you.
Of course at the end of the day it is a gut call more than just a legal call and only you can make that one.
Eric,
While I dont think you’re liable. I would also want to help the person who followed my advice. I would hope that maybe you had at least another business contact who could provide the service at no additional charge and in return you would work out with him some sort of exchange. Maybe it’s promoting their product more. Some sort of barter. I think then the customer would feel better, personally you would feel better, and the person who got involved may get some followup sales from the customer…
I feel for the guy who is out of his money but I do not think that you should pay him. In good faith, based on your experience, you recommended that copywriter.
Unfortunately, Dragutin did not have a good experience with this copywriter but I think it sets a bad precedent in general for a recommender to be held financially liable for a bad experience.
Example: I give a friend a McDonald’s coupon and tell him to try the new “McSandwich” because I thought it was delicious. My friend takes the coupon buys and eats the sandwich and gets sick, does that make me financially liable for his pain and suffering? Do I even owe him for the cost of the sandwich? I don’t think so.
If small claims court is not an option then Dragutin, as he alluded to earlier in one of his e-mails, needs to put the internet to work and let as many people as possible know how bad his experience has been.
All though I feel for the victim and his loss, I myself look at it this way, You were nice enough to recommend this copywriter, that doesn’t place you in the payment area in which the victim had plagered on himself buy purchasing without doing his homework towards the copywriter. So that marks out that you are not responsible for his actions all though they are trying times for him. I do not like to lose that amount also. I would try my best to get it back from the copywriter who had screwed the vitim for his money. Thats how I play this out.
Why did you recommend a crook?
Hello Eric.
I think your credibility may be called into account, because you recommended this writer. However you said, you did business with this same writer before, and you had a good experience. The money you paid him was much less, I think you should have a serious chat with the writer, since you recommended him, let him know you are being asked to pay for his short comings, so he, should make this right with his client, because you are not responsible for his failures.
They both need judge Judy!!! But, NO, don’t you have some sort of a “disclaimer” to let people know that you ARE NOT LIABLE for the actions (or lack thereof)of others! Use at your own RISK!!! You are a TEACHER! You gave a recommendation based on a past experience. It went south. THEY NEED TO GROW UP AND ACT LIKE MEN!!! I agree that the copy doesn’t fit the desired description and he is due a refund, but, that refund shouldn’t come from you. However, if you did give the man the money, I wouldn’t think less of you. In fact, I”d highly respect your decision. It wouldn’t look bad on you, it would just make you look like a bigger man.
Hi Eric,
I would say you should do what your heart is saying. And if I were you, without further delay I would pay him the commissions that I got out of this deal. And furthermore, to give a boost in my reputation I would even pay him the rest amount. Because, I know what you give to the Universe, it will come to you many many folds. Its your chance to grab that opportunity, Eric. Grab It!!
Thanks again for giving us a chance to participate in this.
Kamrul
Eric,
It was with good intensions that you made the referral. And I’m sure your decision to recommend a company/individual is based on your previous experience and dealings with such. You clearly made an effort to help two groups: A client and the referral company. I can’t see how you should be held responsible if the company/individual does not perform. Clearly, they could do well with the clients you send their way, but choose not to perform tasks to the abilities demonstrated by them to you in order to get refferals. Secondly, even if someone recommends a service or company to me, it is still my responsibilty to do the research…….its not your fault nor should you reimburse any monies. Just don’t reccomend their service any longer since they let you and others down.
Hi Eric, I do not believe that either morally or otherwise you are responsible. It is up to the individual to do their due diligence anytime they have a recommendation for anything, even getting a second opinion if need be. One must take responsibility for their actions. Had you received some type of compensation than that would be a different situation all together.
nope your good!
I wouldn’t refund, but you could certainly help him out with his copywriting!
Business is business and it’s all risk on the other side. I have put 1000’s of dollars into things that were recommmended and didn’t work b/c of my lack of focus or I didn’t make it happen. Hell, there was my graphic designer (now ex) who got my psyched up about an opportunity that he was into… I signed up for it and bought into a $1000 share magazine co-op and a $1800 cpa package-> 600 targeted cpa leads that from all odds were supposed to convert a few or more $3000 sales of which I got $1000 for each sale. Around 10 or so bought the upfront ebook which gave me a 25 commission, but none took the $3000 platinum package. The cpa leads were from a list it seemed to be mainly unemployed. I realized later that the sales funnel needed another middle step product but was out of my control b/c I was using someone elses lead system. So many variables. Yes, I was angry and upset about it b/c it was a side biz opportunity that went South and I lost all that money. I didn’t go back to my graphic designer and demand he give my money back b/c of his recommendation. He bought leads too that didn’t convert for him, but he did make money off of his other clients who signed up for the 3k (discount) package. Thank God I only spent money on the advertising part of it and didn’t buy in. Live and Learn!
This makes for a very good copywriting and SEO lesson. Controversy gets 238 comments and counting and you are not legally or morally responsible for this persons!!!
If I told you about this amazing deal I just got on a car at Eric’s car lot and you go there and get a bad deal or lemon is that my fault “I THINK NOT”
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one I TV, so I am not going to touch the legal aspect of this.
On the moral side, I personally would feel bad if I had a good experience with someone and then recommended them to someone else only to find out they ripped off the other person.
I wouldn’t feel like I had a moral obligation to repay the loss unless I told the person in question, “You have to use this copywriter because not only is he the best, not only will his copy sell 10 times more of your stuff than any other copywriter, but this guy is a saint and treats all his customers with respect, always delivers, etc…” In other words, morally if I had made a case that this particular copywriter was the ONLY person anyone should ever choose for their copywriting then I MIGHT feel morally obligated to re-pay the money. Otherwise, not so much.
Blessings…
Eric you owe this guy nothing, doesn’t anyone take responsibility for his own actions anymore, and to wait 45 days + to resolve the issue, he’s not the brightest bulb in the arena. Let him bite the bullet
Regina H.
• There’s no legal responsibility from what I can see. However, that’s not the real issue here. It’s your CREDIBILITY as an Internet Marketer who produces ERIC’S TIPS week after week to many loyal followers present and future.
• . Your customer, trusting you, lost out because the vendor didn’t come through.
To make matters worse it appears that [redacted] isn’t great at customer relations, doesn’t look to minimize problems and protect the person who recommended him.
He may have his own side to this, but in the end the happiness of the customer (who in this case is a person who trusts you as the producer of ERIC’s TIPS ), so REALLY the CUSTOMER to whom you recommended [redacted] is what counts.
If I were you, I would definitely offer to do the copywriting for him and this would make him happy. Plus
• maybe even tack on one of your products for good measure. He probably doesn’t expect it and will likely be overjoyed at the generosity.
This also sends a signal to your customer base that you stand behind what you’re involved with.
Bottom line Eric, this is now more about YOU and your integrity as an Internet Marketer than it is about [redacted].
For the future I would require that a percentage of sales be held in escrow for a period of time, to allow for complaint .
• Also for anyone who is not satisfied with a product that they purchased on the Internet, be it with a credit card or with the Paypal credit card processor, always eventually contact the credit card company that is where you get results. If it is a clickbank product try to get the refund through them first. In my experience if you have emailed the vendor a few times about wanting a refund and they are not complying , then send them an email one last time telling them you have lost your patience and are now going to contact the credit card company stating your reasons for a refund request. Wait a few days to see if they respond offering the refund (I have done this in the past and sometimes they are offering the refund because they do not want you to go to the credit card company and complain about them). Now if the y do not respond to that final email with a refund then phone your credit card company (the number on the back of the card) and you will be directed to the department that deals with complaints. They will ask the reason why you want the refund and then you can tell them your reasons. I have always gotten my refund once I call the credit card company and I have had to do this a number of times for different reasons.
• One last note. If a vendor you bought something from informs you by email with a link showing there is a legal document stating that the product could only be returned within 72 hours ( or however long), the credit card company informed me because you did not sign it therefore is not legal. In this case I also got my refund. So the credit card company is where you will get results for refunds if you do have to take it that far. I learned this all from experience.
In the business world… What works for you may not work for another person… it’s like saying one size fits all… or an item is suitable for everyone… I can tell you the products I produce are not perfect or suitable for everyone as each individual is different… Yet word of mouth is a powerful advertising tool. If I had a penny for every endorsement made to me and I acted upon it… and it was a negative experience… I would not blame the endorser I would seek a refund from the business providing the product or service…
If I were checking creds & only got one reply, as he did, I would have sought a copywriter elsewhere. Although you probably do not have a legal liability, a moral responsibility remains & I recommend giving him 1/2 the value as a purchase credit for a future product. Full value is not out of the question, but 1/2 might “cool his jets.” You’re not out the cash & he gets something of value. Not exactly a win-win, but close enough.
There is a risk in almost everything. If someone recommended you go to a specific store and you got mugged on the way… is that guy liable to pay your hospital bill? What happened to personal responsibility and accountability? Your customer is responsible to get more than one opinion if there is a substantial amount of money involved. Surely, he must realize you didn’t make this recommendation with the ability to control the result. We have a culture that is quick you blame. Someone once said when you point your finger at someone else, you have 3 fingers pointing back at you.