Yesterday I received an email from a reader who had hired a copywriter based on my recommendation in late 2009.
Unfortunately, he was not happy with the sales letter he received from the copywriter, and the copywriter allegedly did not complete the work he had been paid to do.
About seven weeks ago, the reader wrote to me about his negative experience with this copywriter. It was the second complaint I had received from readers regarding this copywriter, and I had also received an additional warning from a fellow marketer.
At that point, I pulled my endorsement of the copywriter, and made it clear on my website that I am no longer recommending him.
Now yesterday I received another email from the reader…
Hi Eric,
I hope you are well.
Just to let you know I contacted BBB.org, PayPal and my credit card company.
The business of [redacted] is not registered with BBB.org.
The complaint with PayPal can only be filed within 45 days from the date of payment and that period is exceeded due to [redacted] procrastination and the story telling.
My credit card company is not able to provide the refund of $1344 I paid to [redacted] for the letters he never wrote as there is an involvement from PayPal between them and the vendor.
I acted on your recommendation to choose services of [redacted] as you described him trustworthy and reliable.
From all people and businesses who gave testimonials on his web site only one responded on my enquiry.
The others simply ignored my enquiry and some of the have URL error.
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency and am asking you to provide me with the full refund.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards
Dragutin
As you’ve seen, the reader is asking me to compensate him for the payment he made to the copywriter.
I should mention that I do appreciate his polite tone. If he had sent a “flame” I wouldn’t be featuring it here.
I asked him for some additional information, and here is a copy of his communications with the copywriter:
PDF of email correspondence [redacted]
So there are really two questions at stake here…
1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote as an affiliate?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
The ramifications are very significant, because the answers to these questions affect not only this situation but also…
– Everything I endorse/promote.
– Everyone who endorses anything or promotes something as an affiliate.
This is why the Internet marketing world was in a tizzy last December when the FTC rolled out their new guidelines for endorsements and testimonials.
So let’s answer the first question, as it applies to this situation:
Am I legally liable?
According to the FTC, endorsers may be liable for false or unsubstantiated claims made in an endorsement, or for failure to disclose material connections between the advertiser and endorsers.
Let’s talk about false or unsubstantiated claims.
If I had blindly promoted the product/service without checking it out first (as many affiliates do in this industry, and as I have done in the past on occasion), then I believe I might bear liability if my claims did not match up to the product. Let that be a word of warning to all affiliate marketers: You ARE responsible for what you say/write.
However, in this case I was speaking from first-hand experience. I had actually paid this copywriter $197 to write a sales letter for me, and I felt that the product I received was a good value for the amount that I had paid.
Therefore, my claim was substantiated, and I made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers.
Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections.
I initially wrote my recommendation in October of 2009, which was prior to the new FTC guidelines going into effect.
When the new guidelines went into effect on December 1st, I added an “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement” to my website, which I believe satisfies this requirement. If I am shown otherwise, then I might need to get more aggressive about disclosing material/affiliate relationships.
In this particular case, I never did get paid an affiliate commission for the sale in question. So I’m not sure how that affects the material connection from a legal standpoint. Am I still an affiliate if I’m getting scammed too?
OK, so in my opinion I am NOT legally liable for the copywriter’s failure in this situation.
But that brings us to the next question…
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth, and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
If I were him, I probably would have written the same email to me.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
From the look of my dear reader’s emails, he’s gone through the denial and anger stages, and has now come around to the bargaining stage. Like I said, I’d be bargaining too.
I see this from two perspectives… justice, and compassion.
From the justice standpoint, I believe it would not be right for me to give him the refund out of my own pocket. Would justice be served by this? No.
Now… IF I had been paid a commission, I do think partial justice could be served if I refunded that commission to the customer. But in this case, there is no commission to speak of.
From a compassion standpoint, I’d love to help out my reader.
If we were talking about a much smaller dollar amount, I probably would have just offered to pay for it (or more likely… I wouldn’t have gotten an email about it in the first place). But $1344 is a decent chunk of change.
We all know the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If it were the other way around, would I want him to pay for my refund out of his pocket? Yes I would, at this moment in time. But after more time has passed, I would most likely come to the conclusion that justice would not be served by an otherwise innocent affiliate paying me out of his own pocket.
In other words, my sense of justice would eventually trump my desire for recompense. (The two are not mutually exclusive. The victim should be paid back in order for justice to be served, but taking the money from the wrong person is not the solution)
So I do not think it is my moral obligation to pay for the customer’s loss…
But I want to know what YOU think!
I told the customer I would post this on my blog, and take my reader’s opinions into consideration.
I want to know:
What would you do in my situation, and why?
I am absolutely willing to pay a full refund to the customer if the arguments in his favor outweigh the arguments against.
I wish I could just err on the side of compassion, but obviously such a precedent could open me up to a lot of headaches and abuse due to other customers taking advantage of my leniency. If that is the outcome, then I will probably change some things about how I run my business.
Post your comments below. Please do not “trash” me OR the customer or even the copywriter. That’s not the point of this. At the same time I am not necessarily looking for support. I want your honest opinion, even if you are not on my side.
Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers. So let us know what you think.
Thanks for your input!
UPDATE: I’ve now posted the conclusion to this saga here:
Hi Eric read most of the comment most point to the fact you do not owe a refund.Legally your not bound by recommendation.Ethically you are not also bound by recommendation, people recommend services all the time.I was in business also had it happen to me someone recommended product or service they had a good experience or they had a bad experience.I recommended others to work on a project and the person did not fulfill the obligation.However you don,t always know why.Consciously it bothered me and i made one attempt to get it sorted out by having a meeting between the two parties.In my case it worked and things got resolved.But you must lay ground rules.If nothing comes of it you settled it in your mind and they both lose by not trying to work it out.It is only a suggestion you will make up your own mind as to what to do.Let you inner voice guide you.At least you will remove it from your mind?
PS Thanks for helping me still learning Push Button
Helmut Ontario Canada
Hi Eric, I am sure you had some sort of disclaimer regarding your endorsements of others products and services. I don’t feel that you should be the one to compensate the person who is unhappy with the work. That is what the courts are created for to sort out these types of disputes. I think it will be hard for him to recoup his money from you. I know that in these matters an attorney should be consulted.
My Regards Eric
Hi Eric, we sure have learned a lot from you. Thanks for sharing so openly. We are learning again.
I agree that you are not at all responsible and your disclaimer covers you. If you decide to help the chap in a practical way (e.g. making him a sales letter), let him know it is a gift out of the kindness of your redeemed heart.
Val
Caveat emptor…buyer beware. It was up to your reader to do his own investigation of the copywriter before sending him any money. Why did he send the money before receiving the copy anyway? That wasn’t the smartest idea to begin with. You, Eric, certainly shouldn’t be held responsible for another grown adult’s lack of common sense! That’s a big problem in this country/world in general…people not wanting to take responsibility for their own mistakes and trying to pin the blame on someone else. I think this fellow needs to take the copywriter to court if he wants his money back so badly, and leave you alone. If all else fails, let him chalk it up as a learning experience so he never does it again.
Eric,
How can you tell the future and the actions of another person? I don’t think you owe this man a thing. You can make recommendations all day long. Are you responsible for the action of others. I’ve been ripped off myself. I asked for refunds and some do and some don’t give them. I have been on your email list for over 2 years and I am impressed with your honesty. No fluff just the facts. My only suggestion would be for you to contact the copywriter and plead for the case for the client. I only suggest this because you are taking the time on your blog. Pray on this and God will give you an answer.
Eric,
I agree with those who say you are not legally liable. I a bit conflicted on the repayment to the customer, however.
I know the WWJD bracelets smack some of triviality, yet the apostle Paul implies that when he (Paul) says, “Follow me, as I follow Jesus.”
Having said that and surveyed other scriptures in my mind, I’m struck by the times that Jesus said that sins were forgiven even as a priority over bodies being healed.
Perhaps you could do this; the customer wanted a sales letter written. You (or your copywriters) produce well written work. What if you offered to produce the sales letter for the person? Then, perhaps a letter of kind “advice” to the guy who did not (allegedly) perform the work… but a letter in which you stress your own compassion for the copywriter, and were praying FOR him… seems like I remember that as a scriptural admonition… to do his business with integrity and excellence.
In fact, in my own business I’m strongly trying to follow the principle of achieving Radical Excellence by using traditional values that are based in scripture.
Speaking of prayer, I will pray that you will be able to leave all this behind with confidence to go forward following the vision you have.
As one who appreciates a good glass of lemonade let’s see if we can turn this bushel of lemons into something good.
First of all, you do not have an obligation to compensate this gentleman for the money he has lost. But you do have an obligation to the world at large to see this story through …
especially since you have shared the first couple of chapters with us.
It seems that on one side of the chasm we have a gentleman who is astute enough at business to be looking for professional assistance in fine tuning his efforts. Unfortunately, Dragutin did not check this knucklehead out well enough. But we have all made mistakes.
On the other side we have a gentleman (that be you) who has an exceptional knack of communicating, teaching and mentoring others.
Hmmm….
If I had chocolate and peanut butter I would put them together and see what I had.
What if the two of you were to strike up a mini partnership and create a product, a tool, a training course, an ebook telling a story of two marketing rockstars that started off on the wrong foot, a ????
The first $1344 would go to Dragutin. The next $100,000 or so could be split 50%/50%.
You could slide me $20 and a glass of lemonade for coming up with the idea.
…. and the world would be a better place!
Paul
I have to agree with you about both the liability and reputation part. I quit relying on recommendations from internet marketers. I do my own research on whatever it is that I am purchasing. In this guys case he should not have paid the man up front. It is his fault that he got burned. Doing something like that on the net is saying I’m a sucker, take my money. Whatever you do Eric, listen to your heart, it’ll make the decision for you.
The first thing to remember is”The Buyer Beware”
secondly paying $1300+ out to what is a contractor was a little stupid,myself has over many years recommended services and products based on my first hand knowledge of these services and products. Some people don’t get as good a service product that I received, that does not make me liable for their misfortune. In the case at hand, a large proportion is the complainants own doing,he is trying to project himself as something he is not, an “expert” the info given to the copywriter is not very good, a very good copy writer would have made a better job of it, but essentially the complainant got what he asked for. Sad but true.
Eric,Here is the way I see it.
> Not Guilty period!!
>There isn’t or shouldn’t be any feelings
of guilt or remorse on your part.
>Your reputation has NOTHING to do with
THIS MAN’S DILEMMA .
> You are reachable I think by offering
any kind of refund would open up a can of worms.
>I would just say Sorry for your misfortune
next time he should check more thoroughly before making a commitment for something he knew nothing about.Your results can’t be compared to his results.
Hi Erik,
This business was obviously NOT between you and this gentleman; therefore, in my opinion, you do not have a legal obligation to refund him anything. As for a moral obligation, I don’t believe there is such a thing in this case either. Sure, you recommended this copywriter in good faith AT THAT TIME, but you did not TELL him to use this copywriting service, and it should have been this customer’s own moral obligation to check out more than one copywriter before making his decision to purchase a service – not your responsibility, Erik. In all the months that I have been following you and your teachings in this business, I know of no one else who is willing to do so much for so many with little or no compensation. In my honest opinion, I believe you have no legal, moral or ethical obligation to this customer who was obviously all too eager to pay up front for what he wanted and thought he was going to receive – definitely not something I would have done, and most assuredly I would not try to get a refund from anyone other than the entity I was directly doing business with. But, that’s just me 😀
Eric,
IMO, you are not responsible for refunding any money to Dragutin. You made a recommendation based on your own positive experience with a third party’s service. You cannot be held responsible if the service was not satisfactory according to someone else’s experience with that same service provider.
As an example, if we were to go with what Dragutin thinks is fair, I’d have to reimburse my neighbor if they went out and bought a minivan based on my recommendation, and then something went wrong with the car and the person who sold it to them skipped town. There are many other examples I can give along this line. Suffice it to say, in addition to taking your recommendation into account, Dragutin should have also conducted his own independent research on the copywriter. Either way, in the end, it was Dragutin’s ultimate choice.
Eric, I have recently gone through a similar situation. I asked a long time friend, who has a lot of internet business experience, for a recommendation. I needed help restructuring our website.
My friend recommended a person who had done excellent work for him in the past.
Everything was moving along very well and I was making incramental payments based on work accomplished. Suddenly the work stopped.
Excuses became the norm. Next I found that the temporary website had been trashed. After that the actual business website was trashed.
I was out money and out of business. It was impossible to prove who was responsible for the destruction and the lady that had been doing the work refused to communicate.
After giving the situation a lot of thought, I decided it was not my friend’s fault because he had acted in good faith. If someone or something unexpectedly turns sour that is unpredictable.
Only God knows what’s around the corner.
Next time I’ll be far more careful.
And thanks to my friend, we are back in business.
Eric and all members,
As previously mentioned, I’m willing to cough up a few bucks, should Eric decide to refund this “Dragutin *&^_(t”.
If we all agree to spend even a couple of dollars, then Eric, should he decide to go against the majority, could make the refund, and it wouldn’t come out of his pocket.
Eric has provided all of us with a supreme service and has mentioned more than once about giving back.
I think it’s time to give back to Eric if he so desires.
Terry,
South Korea
Eric,
You have no obligation, legally or morally, to pay him. That being said, even despite your well-founded concerns about people taking advantage of you in the future, it might be a kind gesture to pay him a couple hundred bucks. If you decide to do this, please chat with your lawyer first. You would want a statement signed or acknowledged by him that you don’t actually owe him anything at all, that you’re doing this merely because you’re a good guy, and that he agrees not to complain about/badmouth you about this incident in any forum, public or private.
Just my .02.
Eric,
While I feel for this person, the question here is this… you had a good experience doing business with this copywriter, and you recommended him based on your experience.
Is it your fault if this person one day decides to become dishonest in his business dealings? That answer would be no.
Any of us would feel absolutely terrible if we were in your shoes, and most of us might even feel a bit responsible because of our part in such a transaction, but as I mentioned, none of us are responsible for the decisions of another. To set such a precedence could prove a disaster to your business, and to others as well.
My suggestion…
If it eases your conscience, and you can easily afford the money, you might consider paying. You must be able to sleep at night. But if you do so, you need to clearly state that from this moment on that you will not be liable for such transactions, and that you refunded this man strictly from the kindness of your heart, not from any legal obligation.
Make it a part of your site policy that consumers all know the golden rule… “buyer beware,” and that we are all responsible for our own decisions if we decide to do business based on a good experience you had.
Are you legally responsible? No.
Are you morally responsible? Only you can answer that question, but I don’t think you are. There are no guarantees that any person will provide the service they promise, and none of us can bear the responsibility of another.
One other point to consider, perhaps, if you are considering paying him, would be to pay half. After all, he should have researched this man and his business before paying him. He needs to accept that as being his responsibility…all of us need to remember that.
Good luck to you, I hope you come to a solution you can be happy with.
Greg
I’m in general agreement with the rest of the responders, especially Rudy. I would be cautious though, so it would not seem like an admission of responsibility. It is a tricky legal problem, and I am not a lawyer. Having been on both sides of the problem–as a “seeker of truth”, and a copywriter, I find myself coming down on your side. You did not have any monetary agreement with the writer. Before shelling out $1300 some dollars, I would demand a written statement of work outlining exactly what was to be done, what deliverables were expected, timelines, content, and approval provisions. As a purchaser of internet products and services, I would never depend on the word of a person or organization without first getting a second opinion, especially for that amount of money.
No, Eric, you’re not reliable.
Your major mistake was not recommending ME. I am the greatest copywriter in the history of the world (my mother assures me) and I am an honest man. I do not take money for work not done.
Hi Eric. You are not liable to pay this guy and I think if you were talk to a lawyer they would say the same. Here in N.Z
we have the disputes tribunal which is what he could use if he is not satisfied with the service he was provided with. As the others have said you were satisfied with the service you got which is your opinion and the other guy has his opinion of [redacted]
I’m not sure I have the whole story. Have YOU had complaints about this copywriter from others you recommended…and then still promoted your affiliate link on your site? The $197 you paid is quite a jump from the $1300. your client was charged…did you know or do you get the lion share (assuming payment)?
I’m not sure how long ago this was but when I use paypal, I always pay using my credit card so that I can be assured the refund occurs. Don’t know what cc he uses…but that has never stopped my cc Co. from issuing a conditional credit and I have yet to have it reversed. I’ve been able to get refunds well past paypal’s limitations.
After saying ALL of that…I am an online entrepreneur and I value every single customer that I have…so I wouldn’t hesitate to refund something like this. I don’t see it as a “fault” thing…and frankly, I’d pursue whoever I refunded on behalf of.
Regardless, I think everyone should BEWARE that refund policies aren’t always TRUE…just because someone puts a guarantee in writing, doesn’t mean they are true to what they say. I’ve had several affiliates promote junk to me and when I asked for a refund, they ignored me. That’s why when I use paypal, I always select my cc instead of the funds in my account.
Their written guarantee is ALL the cc Company needs to see.
I gasp when I see what he paid for the services of this copywriter. That is nearly 10 times what you said you paid. No matter how much Dragutin needed done, the PRUDENT thing for him to have done is to do a small test before committing the farm. The copywriter is liable for services paid for and not rendered. Dragutin seems to me to be taking advice blindly. As an affiliate, I suppose this kind of thing surfaces periodically. That does not make the affiliate responsible for bad judgment. He made a business deal with someone other than you. Where does personal responsibility come into something like this?
No, my friend, you owe him nothing either legally or morally. If you wish to compensate him out of charity, that is a totally different thing.
Eric,
In my opinion, you are certainly not legally liable. It would make the requesting party very happy to see you pay, and I can certainly tell that you are very compassionate about this person’s plight. But, and this is the “biggie” — you would be setting a huge precedent that everyone you recommended would have to please all those who followed your recommendation. Apparently that is not always going to happen. I don’t know how you phrased your recommendation, but with your broad exposure, you would probably be prudent to tell your prospects and clients of your experience without giving any SPECIFIC recommendations for 3rd party purveyors.
Eric, sorry if this comment comes through twice. It didn’t seem to ‘take’ the first time. You have three questions:
1) Am I liable. This means would a judge in a court find you liable. No. A judge would not.
2) What is the moral thing to do. This depends on what moral code you adhere to. If YOU say it is immoral not to pay Dragutin … then it is immoral not to pay him.
3) What is the thing to do here. Try to create new value where none existed before. E.g. tell Dragutin you want to help him out, and what you will do is — free of charge — make him an affiliate for one of your most expensive products. And then you will remit to him 90% of all sales he makes, up to $1344. Then he can keep selling on the regular affiliate commission rate.
This doesn’t cost you anything. It makes him whole. And it builds better good will than there was before.
Pay the man. Here’s why.He is your customer or at least you wanted him to be.I see the comments are in favor of not paying it, but the reasons that you should are:
1)He felt he could trust you – If you pay him he’ll know that he can.
2)He quite possibly could buy products from you in the future that will be much more than the $1400. If on the other hand you don’t he will NEVER buy from you no matter who writes your copy.
3)You made a mistake because you recommended
the writer and YOU did’nt check to see if he had been endorsed by the BBB.
4)As long as in the future you recommend only products/services/people which are so endorsed you will probably NEVER get another email like the one you received from him.
5)Bottom line is you will be out $1400 which you can recoup and you will gain a loyal customer who is’nt afraid to use his credit card and BUY and you will feel better doing it this way rather than not.
Seems to me that he made a mistake believing the guy’s “Storyline.” Yes, you endorsed him from your experience, but supposedly we are all adults and as such need to take responsiiblity for our own actions. I’m in the hole around $10,000 for a renters “storyline”– an expensive lesson for me, and also for Dragultin for perhaps not trusting his gut!!
Look at it this way. If every newspaper that recommended you vote for George W. Bush is not being held liable for the death and destruction that idiot brought into the world, why should you be liable for the carelessness of someone who failed to give due diligence to his business research? He should have reasoned that your opinion is just one of many and that he must do his homework and develop his own opinion. Why is it that Internet Marketer wannabe’s act like sheep? Wake up people! Don’t believe anyone, even a good guy like Eric. He can be wrong, as has been proven in this instance. You must learn to think before acting. By the way, anybody can be a copywriter so why spend all that money on an unproven entity? Do it yourself! Especially if you’re a beginner. Frankly, if you can’t write your own copy, you probably belong on a factory assembly line somewhere. Eric didn’t cause this guy’s misery but he really should be more careful and distance himself from the majority of online marketers who are mostly liars. This business is full of criminals, just like the real world.
Legally, you’re not liable. Ethically, you’re not liable. If you want to sleep soundly at night and not worry about this whole matter, you could attempt to negotiate a settlement at somewhere between 20-50% of the transaction just to put the whole mess behind you. If Dragutin doesn’t like this, he’s SOL. If he accepts the settlement, the incident ends, but I think you could be setting a dangerous precedent by offering a settlement in this scenario. Everyone that does business on the internet at one time or another gets screwed or takes one in the shorts and just accepts it as a cost of doing business on the internet and tries to minimize the number of times it happens to him or her. If Dragutin makes an incident out of this whole thing, the word gets around and no one will want to do business with him. Even though the internet covers the whole world, the business side of the internet remains relatively small and I wouldn’t push it if I were him, because word gets around fast and no one will want to do business with him. So, I guess my position in this incident is no settlement and no refund. If you lose a subscriber, you’ll live. Dragutin should just accept the whole incident and push forward. He’ll live, and will actually garner some respect by accepting his loss. It happens. One just tries to minimize the number of bad experiences.
Hi Eric
That situation with [redacted] reminds me of a situation that somewhat resembles this one.
I had given a contractor a downpayment of over 1000.00 to have him install new windows in my house. After he got the downpayment, I did not hear from him for a few months so I decided to contact him. However, I could not reach him by phone, so I wrote to him. He of course did not answer.
After a few months went by I received a letter from a lawyer who had been approached by others who “had been taken” and was asked if I also wanted to add my name to the list. I prayed about it, and somehow felt I should not, that this guy was going through “a hell of his own.” I told the lawyer I was not adding my name to the list and wrote to the contractor telling him that he would hear from me no more, that his debt to me was forgiven because I had prayed about this issue and I was given the feeling I was to forgive the contractor and let the issue go.
Six months later I received a visit from another contractor who told me that he had been approached by the first contractor and had been asked to fulfill the contracts of all those who had given a downpayment.
He then informed me that the first contractor had specifically asked that I be the first on the list to receive my windows. I was then told that the first contractor had been out of commission because of a severe mental breakdown and that was why he had been unable to fulfill his contracts.
Therefore that brings me to this question: Have you tried to contact [redacted]? Is he sick or is this lack of fulfilling his contracts on purpose?
Secondly, if I had endorsed a person and other people who really trusted me had followed my recommendation, I would try to compensate in some way. Perhaps one way would be to try to find out from [redacted] himself why he has not done what was promised.
Perhaps you could do as suggested in previous responses: somehow help this man get what he needs…a well written copy.
Upon a copy of proof of payment to [redacted] I would feel it my duty to help this person out in some way for no other reason but my name is attached to the endorsement. He needs Help. And after this never make a recommendation unless it is followed by a strong disclaimer.
Stay away from lawyers. It would cost you and Dragutin more in the long run.
Marcelle
If I have a good experience with the vehicle I own and someone asks me would I recommend that vehicle make, and I say yes; then am I responsible for all the vehicle repairs for that person should they decide to purchase that make of vehicle?
That is the problem with our society; always looking for someone else to blame. Maybe more due diligence on his part to see recent work and ask for an endorsement from a recent customer? How about using an escrow service such as eLance.com or escrow.com?
Dragnuts just learned an important lesson on outsourcing. Maybe he should invest in a course on outsourcing.
Hi Eric,
I truly believe it would be wrong on so many levels for you to take on the responsibility of refunding Dragutin’s money.
While I feel true compassion and empathy for Dragutin, I also, believe that most everyone who purchases anything via the internet, either, has or will face similar situations.
I think the copywriter alone is responsible for Dragutin’s refund. Even if you were promised a commission for the recommendation it is quite likely that the copywriter would not have paid you if his intention was to defraud or default.
Honestly, I can not see how you should be held responsible. Dragutin had up to two months to complain to his cc/bank which was long enough for him to know if the copywriter would fulfill the contract or not.
Hello Eric,
You asked for an opinion and I have read much of the email you have received on the subject. According to your own email and normal business practice, I notice the following facts:
(1) You are an Affiliate, entitled to commissions on sales through your recommendations.
(2) You made the recommendation as an Affiliate, clearly hoping to get paid the commission. Not as a good neighbor in good faith, without the expectation of any profit other than to be helpful.
(3) The fact that you did not get paid is immaterial because that constitutes a debt that can be claimed in law.
(4) The guide lines that came about later and your reaction to them are commendable but that fact does not absolve you since they are not based on a new law. They are based on law that existed a the time of your recommendation.
(5) The fact that almost the whole community of affiliates works on the basis of willy-nilly accepting and promoting links in their websites in the hope of getting commissions, with or without checking out the principal, does not absolve anyone of those affiliates from doing the necessary due diligence before enticing people to part with their money based on the affiliates recommendation. Even a simple recommendation from a person to another is not just a sugesstion. A recommendation is more onerous, and more so in the commercial environment. Your customer may or may not have asked his neighbor to recommend someone for the job. However, when he came across your recommendation he relied on it based more on your ostensible experience and knowhow of internet transactions.
(6) In the circumstances, you do bear a responsibility towards this transaction and a certain liability attaches to it. The extent of your liability depends on whether you are jointly and severally liable with your principal.
(7) As an Affilaite, you also have a duty and the right to make your principal perform and carryout its responsibility to the satisfaction of your customer, or to make an outright refund.
(8) The fact that if you make a refund it will set a poor precedent is neither here nor there. You have to do the right thing. If it costs you then so be it. Affiliates must realise that their activies are commercial business activities and therefore should have the appropriate liability insurance coverage that normal brick and mortar businesses have to obtain.
(9) You are setup as a business, not a voluntary advisor. Even as a voluntary advisor working without the motive for monetary gain, a liability is attracted by their advise. A lot of people trust you and depend on your recommendations. As an Affiliate you owe it to them to ensure to the best of your ability that those who you are an Affiliate of are every bit capable, sincere and honest in their transactions. Affiliates are not exempt from doing some due diligence before recommending their principals to the public at large.
(10) In light of your business recommendations, perhaps you should re-assess all the principals that you are an Affiliate of before continuing to issue your recommendations to your unsuspecting customers. Remember that as an Affiliate, the concept of -Buyer Beware- applies to you before it applies to your customers.
(11) An overwhelming majority of those who wrote in and expressed their opinion for or against does not make their opinion correct. The right thing to do is to do it based on the facts seen in the light of the appropriate law that safeguards the buyer and the seller. Both legally and morally you have a duty to make your principal make a full refund. If the principal does not do so, then you have a business decision to make: whether to make the refund yourself. If you don’t then you are not necessarily absolved for trying. On the other hand, if you do, it will almost certainly be good and sound public relations and marketing exercise which could win you thousands of additional customers. As one of your respondents said: Do the right thing and refund the man his money.
(12) Finally, I leave you to make your own decision.
Thanks and regards, Mohamed
legally I feel that you are not responsible. But being a good business person I feel that the right thing to do is give back the money. It seems that you are very successful and $1344 should be a small price to pay to maintain your reputation cause in the business world that’s all you really have. You can pay this small fee now and maintain your success or fight this small fight and loose everything. Just swallow your pride and take this small loss as an investment for future success. In the web world, news spread like wildfire. You just gotta figure out what you rather people say, that you are a lying criminal or an honest business man.
P.S.
You should handle this without hidden agendas and set-ups because you don’t know whether or not how smart this person is or if he is willing to continue doing business with you. If he does then do what above said if not, one less person to stress about and your integrity and morals are in tact.
Well, you cannot be blamed for a contract which is not made by you or even you are not a party. So, its obvious that you are not liable to pay him anything.
I think the guy lost too much money and it made him a bit crazy…..well I think it would have been same effect for me also, if I loose $1344.
Hello Eric, you recommended the copywriter after you test him out and the results you get from the job he did you said it was worth the $197, so why not recommend him, right? So my opinion is that why should you pay for someone else fault, even if you recommended him you are not in control of his actions, and that’s why you shouldn’t be the one to pay the price, I feel it for Dragutin but he shouldn’t be asking you for a refund from a money that you didn’t collect, you didn’t took his cash and that’s why he shouldn’t ask you for it, but if you want to give him some of the money back it will be a kind gesture, it is not that you’re guilty why you’re helping him, is because maybe it wasn’t fair what the copywriter has done, even if Dragutin did made a mistake and paid upfront, the copywriter should have been honest
Hello Eric,
It’s quite unfortunate for what has happened BUT with all honesty and truthfulness, I believe you are not liable nor responsible of any refund to the said reader. As it’s always been your practice, you did recommend the services of the said copywriter based on your first-hand experience and also in good faith. Should any gains have been realized as a result of this salesletter, I don’t think the said reader would have cut you any bonus as a way of thanking you for a good referral. In the same vain, he has to swallow any losses as a result.
The bottomline is, whoever is the recipient of the said amount is the one who has to do the refund and in this scenario, it is the said Mr. copywriter.
That to me is the fairest deal.
Stay Blessed and don’t give up, for those who are for you are more than those who are against you.
Hi Eric,
I think sometimes when we trust someone and their judgement we tend to act on their recommendation without doing our own leg work so to speak. This gentlemen did trust your judgement and recommendation and as a result has gotten burnt. It is a difficult situation to be in. But at the end of the day he needs to realise that it was just a recommendation from your own experiance and you cant be held responsible for the fault of the copywriter.
Good luck.
Legally, you’re not liable. Ethically, you’re not liable.
I have to agree with the majority, you do not owe him a refund, however, in the future you should include a discalimer within your testimonials explaining that the testimonial is given because you expect to receive compensation thru affiliate commissions and that you actually have not done your
due dilligance as to confirming the honesty of the individual nor can you vouch for the quality of the service that will be provided !
/// tough choice eric, glad i don’t have to make it, and ur not liable, but i’d either pay him, or offer to split it. he seems like a reasonable customer and will repay you, perhaps, many times over in the future, who knows? kurt!
Eric, I wanted to write most of what Mohamed above wrote, but I also wanted to add that the reason that for the liability is the endorsement. Simply having an affiliate who purchases ad space for their own advertising doesn’t make you liable; actively endorsing does. It’s why endorsements are generally highly-paid advertising.
It kinda sucks that you might have to take the fall, but I would recommend trying to settle for 50% of the amount, as a court case will only make the legal system rich.
This person broke the cardinal rule of investing, in paying more than they could afford to lose, by the sound of it, but making a token payment as an out-of-court settlement (with a written understanding that this ends any liability on your part) might be the best way to go.
It doesn’t seem right, but my own experience shows that this is just a losing proposition on all sides.
In the future, don’t endorse unless someone pays you a deposit for the potential damages (which should be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, to say the least).
Howdy Eric,
There is a lot of good advice on here. However there is some not so good advice here too. I am of the opinion that if you pay part it may make you culpable for the entire amount as a court may see that as an admission of guilt.
Since you did not do anything wrong I would not pay anything.
There are several things that Dragutin did not do right. He should have checked the guy out better before the purchase. He should have asked for references from other customers besides you. (From 2 Cor. 13:1 In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established) Now that is good advice not only for an accusation, but also good for doing business with a stranger. Dragutin should have talked to other customers and verified that they were all happy too. He should have used Escrow, or made an agreement for 1/2 down and the rest on delivery that puts each person at equal risk. He should have started proceedings at an earlier stage to remedy the pay pal situation, Since it seems that you did not have a part in the deal, you aren’t liable for any of it, you can’t even give him back an affiliate fee since it was not an affiliate transaction. It seems to me that at the least, had Dragutin involved you from the beginning for advice on how to do this deal, you may have at least been able to give him some hints on how to do it the right way. But you didn’t even give him any personal advice gone bad. It was an un-compensated referral. Instead it seems that he has run out of options and your his last hope.
I got ripped off for $4000 by a really big Internet marketer a few years ago who told me I had a great story that needed to be put into a book. He was going to help me author my story by teaching me to release the author within me. Then he hooked me up with a writing coach who told me that this story was not marketable and I needed to discover my passion. When I tried to get my money back from this fast talking marketer he told me he had already paid the commission to the the coach he put me with, besides he did not offer a money back guarantee and I just needed to go back to the guy he set me up with and work it out.
I was bummed, still am, but I just chalked it up to stupidity on my part. I have learned that some people will tell you whatever it takes to separate you from your money and that they have no integrity. I just refuse to be like them. I now know that I will not be so gullible in the future. I would not buy anything without a credit card or paypal and if they don’t deliver in a timely manner I report them and ask for a charge back from the CC or paypal.
I do know this much about you Eric, your as honest as the day is long and you are also generous with your time, treasure and talent. I think it is a hard lesson to learn, but it is not the end of the world it is not your place to pay. This is not even a question of your integrity and by putting it out here in the public eye, you are keeping it in the light. That is a good thing.
Oh and just getting the copywriters name out in the light is a good thing too. This will come back to bite him in the long run. Isn’t the internet nice. Screw somebody and your name is forever tarnished.
Only other thing is to try small claims court. Of course I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV but I have met a few.
Onward and Upward,
Pete
I do not think you are liable, either. First of all, your word is not foolproof. There is ALWAYS the possiblity of being wrong about anything we promote or are connected with. That is the whole point of the disclaimers we are required to provide. I have been scammed, too, and guess what? It was my own fault. I followed someone’s recommendation which may have been made in good faith, but, like the old adage goes, “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”
Oh, and… disclaimers are so routinely ignored in court cases that I don’t even bother with them unless people are signing them any more.
I don’t get it. You said you spent $197.00 with Mr. [redacted] and this guy spent $1344.00. He should have started low,however everyone makes mistakes and we are responsible for them.You don’t owe him one red cent. If anything, send him a lolly pop.
Sorry Eric that you got mixed up in this. Small claims court is somewhat out of the picture as there are two different countries involved here UK and US. I say tough luck to the client. The service you received for USD197 was what you expected, you were satisfied. Looking at the copy he was presented from the writer, yeah I feel he was duped. I may not be able to write it myself, but hey it does not look any different than what is out there. It looked like a cut and paste job. USD1344 is a bit much. USD197 may be a stretch. Waiting more than 45 days to claim a refund from PayPal, maybe the guy did not read the fine print in PayPal’s rules, or he was hoping to get a better copy.
I’d say you are not responsible for anything. Your recommendation was before the new law was established. Sorry Eric, let it go. It would be a good Christian feeling to make restitution, but like you said – every Tom, Dick and Harry would be pounding down your door for refunds, from other legit web sites that would say: “tough luck – take it or leave it”, just because you recommended them.
Maybe you can help him write a copy as a good gesture for free, but he probably would ask for a refund for that also?
I feel that in the end its just money. And even though you are not legally responsible for refunding him the money, he did act on what you said. And since he did and in good faith believed that he would get the same type of service that you did. He was expecting to get what you got and he didn’t. So he did what he should of done, all the other ways of trying to get his money back. Nothing happen.
He must be new at this to pay all the money up front. But he acted on good faith and in the end that is what counts.
Maybe offering him products or your time would be better than just handing him over the money. Help him so he doesn’t get taken again.
This is one of the reasons for the new ruling because this is probably happening to more than just you.
Not only should the buyer beware, but also the seller. I recently sold surveillance equipment to two different people. It turned out that the credit cards were used fraudulently. I did everything I was supposed to do. I waited to get a confirmation email from the processor that the transaction was successful and then ordered and shipped the products. A week later I received a call from my merchant banker saying the suspected fraud. I was able to stop one of the unit but the other had already been delivered. The next thing I know, the merchant processing company has pulled the amount of the transaction out of my bank account and froze my account. It’s been three weeks now and I am still trying to get my merchant gateway up and running, I’m out $2300.00 for the cost of the equipment. And it looks like the only ones who are protected is the Credit Card owner, and the merchant processor, even though they are the ones who processed and verified the transaction. The whole thing has made me a little reluctant to be a IM. But, I’m determined to make this work.
Back to Eric’s question, I do not think you did anything wrong. And you definitely are not liable or obligated to pay the gentleman for his loss.
Respectfully,
Phil
Eric,
This is not even a close call, you are not legally or morally responsible in the least. Unfortunately, Dragutin bears half of the responsibility in this case. He was not aggressive enough in his dealings with Nicolas. He had sufficient time to request a refund from Paypal the way he was being treated, but it was HIS choice to wait… and wait some more.
On the other hand, [redacted] is not a good businessman if he doesn’t realize his reputation is much more important than a refund. And if $1344 is a lot for Nicolas to refund to an unsatisfied customer who’s acting reasonably, then he’s not doing very well finacially to begin with — maybe because this is not the first time he pulls something similar.
We all feel bad for Dragutin, but asking you for the money reflects poorly on him. He had a lot to do with the present situation and he knows it.
Perhaps the lesson here is that marketeers shouldn’t recommend any service or product that doesn’t have a 30 or 60-day refund policy, no matter how good our experience with such service has been in the past. Nicolas’ website says nothing about a refund.