Yesterday I received an email from a reader who had hired a copywriter based on my recommendation in late 2009.
Unfortunately, he was not happy with the sales letter he received from the copywriter, and the copywriter allegedly did not complete the work he had been paid to do.
About seven weeks ago, the reader wrote to me about his negative experience with this copywriter. It was the second complaint I had received from readers regarding this copywriter, and I had also received an additional warning from a fellow marketer.
At that point, I pulled my endorsement of the copywriter, and made it clear on my website that I am no longer recommending him.
Now yesterday I received another email from the reader…
Hi Eric,
I hope you are well.
Just to let you know I contacted BBB.org, PayPal and my credit card company.
The business of [redacted] is not registered with BBB.org.
The complaint with PayPal can only be filed within 45 days from the date of payment and that period is exceeded due to [redacted] procrastination and the story telling.
My credit card company is not able to provide the refund of $1344 I paid to [redacted] for the letters he never wrote as there is an involvement from PayPal between them and the vendor.
I acted on your recommendation to choose services of [redacted] as you described him trustworthy and reliable.
From all people and businesses who gave testimonials on his web site only one responded on my enquiry.
The others simply ignored my enquiry and some of the have URL error.
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency and am asking you to provide me with the full refund.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards
Dragutin
As you’ve seen, the reader is asking me to compensate him for the payment he made to the copywriter.
I should mention that I do appreciate his polite tone. If he had sent a “flame” I wouldn’t be featuring it here.
I asked him for some additional information, and here is a copy of his communications with the copywriter:
PDF of email correspondence [redacted]
So there are really two questions at stake here…
1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote as an affiliate?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
The ramifications are very significant, because the answers to these questions affect not only this situation but also…
– Everything I endorse/promote.
– Everyone who endorses anything or promotes something as an affiliate.
This is why the Internet marketing world was in a tizzy last December when the FTC rolled out their new guidelines for endorsements and testimonials.
So let’s answer the first question, as it applies to this situation:
Am I legally liable?
According to the FTC, endorsers may be liable for false or unsubstantiated claims made in an endorsement, or for failure to disclose material connections between the advertiser and endorsers.
Let’s talk about false or unsubstantiated claims.
If I had blindly promoted the product/service without checking it out first (as many affiliates do in this industry, and as I have done in the past on occasion), then I believe I might bear liability if my claims did not match up to the product. Let that be a word of warning to all affiliate marketers: You ARE responsible for what you say/write.
However, in this case I was speaking from first-hand experience. I had actually paid this copywriter $197 to write a sales letter for me, and I felt that the product I received was a good value for the amount that I had paid.
Therefore, my claim was substantiated, and I made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers.
Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections.
I initially wrote my recommendation in October of 2009, which was prior to the new FTC guidelines going into effect.
When the new guidelines went into effect on December 1st, I added an “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement” to my website, which I believe satisfies this requirement. If I am shown otherwise, then I might need to get more aggressive about disclosing material/affiliate relationships.
In this particular case, I never did get paid an affiliate commission for the sale in question. So I’m not sure how that affects the material connection from a legal standpoint. Am I still an affiliate if I’m getting scammed too?
OK, so in my opinion I am NOT legally liable for the copywriter’s failure in this situation.
But that brings us to the next question…
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth, and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
If I were him, I probably would have written the same email to me.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
From the look of my dear reader’s emails, he’s gone through the denial and anger stages, and has now come around to the bargaining stage. Like I said, I’d be bargaining too.
I see this from two perspectives… justice, and compassion.
From the justice standpoint, I believe it would not be right for me to give him the refund out of my own pocket. Would justice be served by this? No.
Now… IF I had been paid a commission, I do think partial justice could be served if I refunded that commission to the customer. But in this case, there is no commission to speak of.
From a compassion standpoint, I’d love to help out my reader.
If we were talking about a much smaller dollar amount, I probably would have just offered to pay for it (or more likely… I wouldn’t have gotten an email about it in the first place). But $1344 is a decent chunk of change.
We all know the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If it were the other way around, would I want him to pay for my refund out of his pocket? Yes I would, at this moment in time. But after more time has passed, I would most likely come to the conclusion that justice would not be served by an otherwise innocent affiliate paying me out of his own pocket.
In other words, my sense of justice would eventually trump my desire for recompense. (The two are not mutually exclusive. The victim should be paid back in order for justice to be served, but taking the money from the wrong person is not the solution)
So I do not think it is my moral obligation to pay for the customer’s loss…
But I want to know what YOU think!
I told the customer I would post this on my blog, and take my reader’s opinions into consideration.
I want to know:
What would you do in my situation, and why?
I am absolutely willing to pay a full refund to the customer if the arguments in his favor outweigh the arguments against.
I wish I could just err on the side of compassion, but obviously such a precedent could open me up to a lot of headaches and abuse due to other customers taking advantage of my leniency. If that is the outcome, then I will probably change some things about how I run my business.
Post your comments below. Please do not “trash” me OR the customer or even the copywriter. That’s not the point of this. At the same time I am not necessarily looking for support. I want your honest opinion, even if you are not on my side.
Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers. So let us know what you think.
Thanks for your input!
UPDATE: I’ve now posted the conclusion to this saga here:
Oh I see, your cookie is your website. Good job Eric! What a great way to get traffic. I also like that you are providing everyone else traffic by allowing them to add thier web sites and the visitor only needs click on the name to go visit that persons website. You are a man ahead of the time’s Keep up the good work and have a great day. JB
Hello Eric,
As to me you are not responsible for this. Your recommendation has been based on positive experience yourself. This is primarily a matter between your reader and this copywriter. If the reader wants his money back he should take steps against this copywriter who didn’t keep his word.
If I had been the victim, I would not even have written you an email, because I consider it my own responsibility. A hard lesson, but also something to beware of next time.
You’re right that any action in this now might have unfavorable consequences. You have handled in honesty, didn’t receive any commission on this sale at all, so you are not bound to compensate your reader for his misfortune.
Regards, Wilma
No that transaction Was Between Him and Some ONE Else I Think You Obligation has both a Business Person and Has a Human Being Now THAT You know the Truth is to never Endorse OR Promote The Copywriter again(and from Following you for almost 2 yrs. i know you won’t).This Is a Topic Because We are in The Business Of Recommending and We Need to Look at the Consequences to others When We Endorse a Bad Product or Service to our customers.We need to not Get So Greedy For Commissions That We Overlook The Needs of our Customers or it could come Back to bite Us(I Wasn’t Insinuating Greed in this Instance) Andrew H.
Well from a legal point of view, by endorsing his services, you have actually accepted responsibility for any wrong doing on his part because by your endorsement you have made yourself his referee, kinda like a surety for someone being granted court bail. But there could be some clause or addendum in the FTC’s rule book might indemnify you of any responsibility provided the actual testimonial on your site of the specific performance the copy writer performed is genuine and provable.
From a professional point of view, you should pay the refund even if you’re not responsible. This would ensure your credibility is not affected. If not, your readers might begin to doubt everything and anything you say from this point on. If you refund the money, the complainant might actually give a testimonial on your site or better yet, his site, recounting the experience and stating how you were kind enough to repay him for his loss. Believe me, this will drive more traffic to your site than you can imagine. Credibility is an invaluable ingredient to a successful business, whether online or in the real world.
It is an honour and a pleasure to share my thoughts with you. Thanks for the oppurtunity.
I think like many of your followers. I hang on every word you write. If you recommend something, we always believe it to be the best on the market. But blind faith is not the way to run a business. There is always a question to ask. It’s up to me to follow any suggestions you make, with another question – Is it right for me? I think that by the tone of the email traffic there was sufficient discourse that would have alarm bells ringing.
I would be demanding my money back from the copywriter.
Keep the recommendations coming!
Regards Mike.
LOL! this is a good example of computer generated content =)
Hi Eric,
I do not think you should be held liable to pay back for someone else’s problem. The party that has lost the money is out and should file a report to the proper authorities and leave you out of it. That being said, if you desire to take the “high road” as someone may have suggested, then you should offer to give him product that you sell as a way of saying you feel bad for what has happened but it was not your fault and you are in no way admitting guilt. If you were to give him a couple of eBook products that you own and not charge him, I think he might settle for that and end up being your best supporter. My whole point is that the cost to you would really be zero and you might make him happy and obviously you would feel better inside as well. Just a side note. I have purchased from you and receive your emails and enjoy them very much and think quite highly of you and your family organization. I feel quite confident that when I order something from you it is going to be a great product. You can’t be held responsible for someone else not following through with their contract. You did not endorse a product and then not deliver it! Also, do not worry about any threat of turning you over to the BBB. They are a for profit organization and have no power at all. As far as I am concerned, the BBB is one of the worst scams out there! If you decide you must refund the money, based upon the response to this open letter, you might ask for donations and because of your wonderful following, you might be surprised how many people would come to the rescue. I very rarely respond to something like this but you must have hit a nerve. Best of Luck!
Not guilty, however, if I was in your shoes I would like to do the right thing by this guy. I don’t think giving him the money is the way to go. Better to help him earn it and more. Could you setup a project with him whereby you promote some sort of JV for him via your list. I’m sure you could come up with something that wouldn’t cost him any money, it would teach him how to go about making some money from an expert plus you ought to be able to work it so you make a few pennies as well.
Phill
Excellent response from Lawton Howell…I agree with all of it.
You recommended based on your experience with the copywriter and have been satisfied with his work that is the reason why you recommend. I will be doing the same thing if I am happy with his work. But why will you refund you did not get any money even a coomission. Maybe you can help by writing to this copywriting about his case this will make him feel you are concern but its not your responsibility to refund him the money.
Hi Eric. You were just as much a victim as the customer in this case as you paid with your integrity, and as far as a refund based on compassion is concerned… that is just bad business.
His deal was not with you and the moment he made the buying decision he took it on himself to conclude the deal on his own terms.
Yes there are unscrupulous people doing business on the internet but the outcome of any business deal is a risk you’re willing to take be it bad or good.
That’s why we have freedom of choice, to do business with whom we want to.
That’s just my opinion but you know who to ask, don’t you?
An opinion is just that – “a view or judgement not necessarily based on fact or knowledge” – however in your case you had in fact used the writer in question.
Information via reference must still be looked into by the individual.
Never pay more than half of the required amount requested, without a quote, and formal document stating “balance on receipt of goods”.
Why pay if you don’t know what you are going to receive, surely you request a portfolio on the person prior to hiring?
No matter who you are, the internet is rife with fraud and guys wishing to make a quick buck.
So in this case I would say Dragutin will have to write this off as a learning curve. Those reading this post take heed.
Take care and thank you for sharing, another reason why to investigate and make sure of the facts, before letting your money slip out of your grip.
I think that you are not liable for any refund, yet on a moral standpoint, perhaps you could pay something towards the lost costs, should you be able to afford this, I appreciate your financial situation is different to that of most of the rest of us, struggling to get by. It becomes a matter of concience.
Hi Eric, wow lot of response here, I have not read all these replies way too many so sorry if i repeat!
I have been following you for a short while and find you very genuine (unlike many others) I admire your approach, this is very clever just look at the response. I dont believe you owe the man in qeustion, but you do owe him as one of your humble followers, it would not be right to give the money back, but take his bitterness away, keep him loyal to you and give him some special help???? That would passify me……..i just think he is lucky to beable to afford a copywriter!!!!!!! 🙂 best to you x
I am inclined to agree with Robert Selby although it is a lot of money to refund. However, I am a great believer in you shouldn’t sell something you don’t thoroughly know and believe in. That comes to people. I think this is a wake up call to be very careful who one recommends. It is too easy to look at the money one can earn from affiliate marketing,without looking at the ethics of one’s reputation. In the end, “A good name is better than good oil” and will always work in the longterm in business and in life.
Eric- This is a great thing you’re doing because you will end up with a huge list of mostly supporters I feel, and the phrase “buyer beware”in lights. The reason I believe that is because you’re quite simply innocent and shouldn’t pay a dime. This would set a poor precedence indeed for the future. After all, it’s not as if someone was killed or seriously injured.
A recommendation is what you gave him and simply THAT,not an endorsement.Your recommendation is based on your experience and nobody else’s especially his. You receive no financial gain for your recommendation, therefore there is nothing to attach any claim to.Suggesting you have some sort of liability to be charged for would mean to me that you should have had some input in the whole deal, and you didn’t. If I recommend a builder to you because he did some work for me, and it didn’t turn out good for you,are you going to sue me? Good luck!
After reading the PDF I can see that there was an obvious misunderstanding and that I believe is as far as it goes.I’m not sure what the limit is for small claims where you live but I would look into that first. It’s not your fault that Dragutin didn’t get what he was asking for. At the very outside the worse thing you did was make a poor recommendation. Oops,sorry! “my condolences”, and that’s the end of it!
Len.
You are not your brothers keeper. Nor am I. You recommended someone in good faith based on your own experience. If someone takes action on your recommendation, they should still do their own due diligence before going ahead and handing over the cash.
If this person has a problem with his contractor, that’s between them and has nothing to do with you. Maybe your people skills are better than his.
Anyway, I don’t believe you owe him a cent. What you choose to do in the name of PR is another thing altogether.
Keep up the good work.
Alan
You have my permission to pass my email address to the buyer, Eric. He is welcome to contact me with his needs and I will happily write the letters for him. When, and only when, he is happy with the work, he can pay me. As a writer and editor, that is the way I prefer to do business.
Hi! Eric,
I think you are not legally responsible to refund the buyer, you just recommended and did not receive compensation.
The buyer should ask a refund of what he paid from the copywriter who did not deliver well.
If you feel morally obligated, then you can do something to close this issue, it’s up to you.
Because you are a good person many of your readers trust you and you better be careful of who you recommend. Do expect a few people who will not be always satisfied with your offerings no matter how good your intentions are. This is one of the bad cases. The buyer is using you to get what he wants from the copywriter and you are entertaining him.
Hi Eric.
The law is a funny thing (especially when talking about internet transactions) have you spoken to your legal representative? Have to say that is the first thing I would do.
As a more direct answer to your question I would say NO you are not responsible for something that was recommended (and ONLY recommended) in good faith and from which you were deriving no financial gain. If you were deriving financial gain however (and it looks from you writing that you may have been expecting a payment) then that puts a different slant on your potential responsibility to check things out. Apart from that one letter he wrote for you, did you ask anyone else who had dealings with him their opinion of his service and trustworthiness ? You take my point.
On a different note I would like to thank you for the help your email tips bring to me and I am sure your other followers. Thanks again. Terry
OMG – Do not pay him a cent!
What is the world coming to, when people think they have a claim like that. Everyone should take responsibility for their own actions, a recommendation is only that.
Then one should check to see if the service or product is suitable for one’s own needs, if not, don’t buy it.
Even then, if there is something wrong with the product or service, only the one responsible for sorting it out, should be the seller!
Re- in the case of faulty goods. Then the sellers work is to refund the sale take back the goods and sort his own side of it with the supplier / manufacturer.
If it is a service, the one providing it should either refund or reduce the fee as they see fit. If the purchaser is not happy with that solution, they should take it to arbitration through the payment services like pay-pal or credit card service.
If a solution cannot be found this way, the purchaser must take the seller to a small claims court, or other type of appeal system to get a fair decision.
In no-way should the person who recommended the product or service be liable. If a commission is made, there are usually systems in place to ‘claw-back’ the commission (usually from future payments), through the commissions payment systems already in place.
In FTC terms, your particular endorsement or testimonial WAS NOT deceptive! Therefore you are NOT liable. It would make a real farce of the system if a case was upheld against you.
It is important to affiliates, to make sure they use either the vendors own prepared literature and testimonials, or their own honest appraisal, (like Eric did), or literature prepared by the affiliate that is passed for vetting by the vendor!
The vendor is then liable for any misleading claims or products or services not meeting the standards set in the vendors literature!
Fight it!
Andy.
Hi Eric
To me it seems cut and dried.. You gave a free opinion in good faith based on your personal experience. You did not guarantee the other person’s integrity or services–you just gave out the facts– eg a professional copy service had been received. It is the personal responsibility of each of us to make up our own mind based on what we have–in this case someone elses opinion–but the final decision rests with the purchaser. Sadly our society with a claim for anything and everything mentality encourages people to shift responsibility for their decisions on to others.You have no reason to accept liability, in my opinion.Good luck.
I don’t feel you are responsible for a refund in any way, though I understand his anger. It is buyer beware. I’ve been caught a number of times by marketers and have chalked it up to experience. If all affiliates were responsible for overhyped sales copy and underperforming product a great many would be in trouble. There are some who believe you are responsible. Given that you had a good experience and were making a statement on the basis of that experience then I believe you don’t need to pay.
To me this situation is similar to you buying a new car,being very pleased with it and praising and recommending it to your friends.If one of your friends decided to buy the exact same model and it turned out to be a lemon,would you be responsible?Would you be expected to recompense your friend in any way?I think not.
When you made the recommendation it was done in good faith because you were pleased with the service you had obtained.That doesn`t guarantee the next person will get the same satisfactory service.End of story.You should not refund in my humble opinion.
No, I do not think that you are liable. The recommendation was done as a result of your experiences, and was thus in good faith. If one really look at it, a recommendation is always one of a number of factors one need to consider in making a decision. Another, that is perhaps relevant here is risk, or to put it another way, is this affordable. Another factor could be to try and see how a particular decision would lead to growth. The point is, sometimes one makes a bad decision, and have little legal and/or ethical recourse to try and reverse things. This seems to me to be the case here. On the compassion side, perhaps instead of refunding, what about other type of assistance. Personal mentoring for about a month regarding a specific aspect (finding a niche, building a list, etc) of the business to assist this person
Impossible to read all these comments, so I hope my point of view was not already posted here?
In my opinion you can not give good answers to wrong questions or solve completely wrong claims. This whole affaire started out wrong.
To request a refund from you is nuts, as well as for you to refund is nuts. But you are responsible for the loss, no doubt, because of your recommendation.
My claim to you would be to make this crook refund, your problem, how. Now you have a name in this industry, if you “visit” this guy and tell him to give the stolen money back, or you will take care of, that he is out of business on this planet and his best chance is picking bananas for the rest of his life, he will be happy to refund the victim, for sure. Tell him you will come over him like a ton of bricks and that he will regret to be born, if he does not give the money back! You have power and influence, use it! Give this crook a lesson he will never forget!!
Whilst you are under no legal obligation (in my non-legally trained opinion!) you do get a lot of your income from affiliates, associates etc – so I would argue that it would make good BUSINESS sense to make a goodwill payment to this person – but do not take responsibility for the second rate service given by the copywriter. As it happens, I have been a professional copywriter for nearly thirty years – so if anyone out there wants a PROFESSIONAL service, get in touch! martinlevinson@btinternet.com
Hi Eric,
First and foremost, you are not responsible for the actions of the copywriter in question which makes you completely innocent of this incident. Even more so since you did not gain financially through this sales transaction.
Justice lies in the copywriter refunding the full amount not you. However, on the other hand if its any consolation, since you are on good terms with the copywriter, perhaps you can talk him into refunding the money.
But to refund any amount of money from your own pocket will not resolve the real problem which is between the seller and the buyer.
And I can sympathise with the purchaser since Ive been there too but luckily didnt lose as much as $1300+.
Best of luck.
Shakil
Hi Eric – wow – you started something here – a great discussion about the legalities and ethics of internet businesses. I’ve learned a lot just from reading all of these posts.
Related to your situation – are you liable – no – for all the reasons outlined by others. But where does compassion come in? You seem to me to be a heartful guy. As a compassionate gesture you could get his sales copy done for him. He paid $1344 for sales copy (seems a lot to me!) so then he would have what he paid for thanks to your generosity.
and I wouldn’t entertain communicating with [redacted] – you have done the right thing by removing your recommendation of him.
But another thing occurs to me. Dragutin is selling a product (the Bob Proctor one) that I think is all about changing your perspective about how you think about life and the world, and how we are the makers of our own destiny. Yet Dragutin himself is looking to blame someone – anyone – about what has happened so he can get his money back. There is some irony here! Dragutin is not practising the ideas in the product he is trying to promote. Maybe this is what the whole experience is to teach him about.
I recently lost $250,000 – my life savings – because a company I had invested in went bust. It would be easy to blame the guy who owned the company (he did make serious mistakes) but I realised very quickly that this is the third time in my life I have lost money (never as much as this) because I invested money in something with the only intention of making money. Finally I have got the message – I am not supposed to do that! Sure, other people seem to be able to do it – but it’s not a path I should be on (even though I dress it up in what good things I could do with the money I make). So now I go back to my first principles – do good work of great value and you will be well paid for it. I found the gift in the experience and all is well. Dragutin needs to look closely at what the gift in this situation is (and it’s not about getting his money back)
I hope Dragutin will read all these posts and apart from getting some good advice on future contracting over the internet, will reflect on what the messages are on a much deeper level.
Thanks Eric – this was a great way to ask us to think about our values, our standards our practices and our ethics.
Eric,I don’t think that u’re liable for this. U just spread the words about something u experienced. Aren’t we all? 🙂
No matter how good or bad a recommendation is, we have to do our own homework, including searching for second opinion,etc. Then we Decide what to do with it. Either we Act or not on it, we have to be Responsible for whatever happens next, either a success or a failure.
Dragutin, i believe u can accept it with an open mind.
All the best for both of u guys!
I believe you acted in good faith. The fact that you posted the request for a refund shows that you are trying to do the right thing. You are not responsible for third and fourth party transactions. It was inappropriate to ask you for the refund. I understand that no one wants to lose that amount of money, but to ask a person who had no involvement in the transaction, the recommendation not withstanding, is way over the top!
Hi Eric,
In my opinion, you don’t owe Dragutin anything. Anybody – who has not been living under a rock since the birth of Internet marketing – knows it’s a jungle out there. You (yourself) have to do ALL the necessary research about a certain vendor you’re interested in, BEFORE buying from them.
You made a recommendation. Your recommendation was based on PAST experience. People change, companies change. It is very possible for a vendor that’s had a good reputation in the past, to become corrupt as time goes by. A recommendation is just a TOOL.
Dragutin should’ve done his homework/research before pursuing business with [redacted]. He can’t keep you responsible for a transaction you had no part in. It was a transaction between Dragutin an [redacted], it had nothing to do with you.
I feel very sorry for Dragutin, and I hope he gets even with this [redacted] jerk. The fact is, people get scammed every single day. And they get scammed for exactly the same reasons he got scammed : they don’t do the necessary research.
Bottom line : This whole dispute should not have been brought to a discussion thread on your website. Because, now your own reputation is also at stake here. Now everybody is watching Eric (instead of [redacted]). Is he going to give in ?? Is he going to refund a transaction he had nothing to do with ??
I suppose we (the readers) are the jury in this court case.. And my decision is, nope, this is not your fault.
Hi Eric, I fundamentally agree with the main drift of the majority of the comments above ie that you should not feel that you need to repay the customer for the third party negligence. I have not yet put your business recommendations into place myself so have no personal views on the quality of your material from an earning point of view. However I have to say I do like the manner in which the material is presented and this informative blog is a very good idea, it certainly has stimulated relevant debate. I hope your customer reads the comments here-in for I am sure you can reach some agreement which is of mutual benefit, to your credibility & his wounded pride.
Hi Eric
What a letter! I understand how you feel about this but stick to the facts: Dragutin entered into a contract with [redacted], seller-vs-buyer. You did not receive any payment for the service provided so you are excluded from the transaction.
If you do make any sort of compensation to the buyer you accept responsibility by implication!!! I know thats tough but thats how it is. Your one of the good guy’s and your only trying to resolv the situation.
If I was in your situation I would be reminding the buyer of the facts and your position within the transaction. Communication is everything in cival matters, you cannot except responsability for the actions what ever you decide to do in this situation.
Like attracts like in all walks of life, money is not the issue hear, the buyer made his decession not you.
Problems are there to be resolved and I know you will do the right thing.
Thanks for the lessons, I will be in touch whn I launch my site.
Mike Hutchinson (UK)
Hi Eric,
Definately do not refund him! It is the responsibility of the copy writer.
Perhaps you could ask Nicolas to refund him as he was the one who received the payment. Pat
Eric,
The question isn’t are you responsible or culpable the question is why did the FTC create their rules.
In my opinion (and it’s only an opinion) Internet business owners have to realise that they are responsible for whatever decisions they make just as traditional owners are.
If in doubt, or in this case relying on someone else to advise you (recommendation), the answer should have been DUE DILIGENCE.
He is not the first person, nor will he be the last, who dives into a business arrangement that doesn’t work out I’m soory to say.
You Eric will have tomake up your own mind over this request, and it is a request.
Hi Eric,
I feel as it appears most do, that you are not reponsible for the actions of someone you recommended. Further more I think it sets a bad precendent for affilates and anyone else for that matter. I would not want to pay for someones car because I recommended a mechanic that did good work on mine but screwed up thiers. Your compassion for his loss speaks highly of your character, dont let him make you feel guilty.
Hi Eric,
I feel really bad for Dragutin, it would appear he is having severe financial problems at the moment and really did not need this.
I can understand he would be desperate to try to get his money back somehow, but you are not legally or morally responsible for refunding him. Your recommendation was in good faith.
I can see your dilemma, but as you say, if you refunded his money out of compassion it would set a precedent and have repercussions not only you, but all affiliates.
Maybe you could try and help Dragutin get a refund from [redacted] but even that is not your responsibility.
He was a little naive to have paid the whole amount up front and should have applied for a refund before it was too late. It was obvious [redacted] was not fulfilling his side of the deal.
God bless whatever your decision is.
First of all things happen. Even if someone is completely honest and the most honest and ethical businessman for years, that does not mean things will not change at some point. Also, you cannot know all the facts that transpired between these two parties.
Secondly, he still has legal rights including filing a small claims court case against the copyrighter, filing a fraud complaint with the States Attorney General (this various depending upon the state, but many have consumer protection laws and you can recover treble damages) You can go on line to your State Attorney General’s Office of Consumer Protection to find your local laws. Also you should file a formal complaint with the BBB and any other consumer protection groups in your and the copyrighters area.
Now Eric, as to your responsibility, it is always best to temper any endorsement with a caveat that indicates while you recommend ( based on your past experience and give a relative timeline) you still must conduct your own due diligence and investigation as to use of this person for your particular purpose.
A recommendation is not an implicit guarantee. I do not think you have any legal liability to make him whole. If anyone just jumps headlong into a situation and hires someone to do anything based solely on what someone else said, then in this day in age they are being foolish.
In the eithical department, I think you could and should have a discussion with the copywriter and get his side of the story and then make a decision as to whether you feel the situation with him has changed or not if it has publish your withdrawl of his recommendation for all your readers, which will protect you in the future.
Conatct me if you want further advice
Eric,
I don’t think you are liable. You recommended the copywriter after you test him out. His job is worthy you pay for it. You didn’t collect any commission from that. Dragutin shouldn’t paid the copy writter upfront. You may give him a little bit of his lost if you want to.
A year ago, a customer asked me if it’s ok to park her car in the street in front of my restaurant. I told her “I think it’s ok on Saturday. She got a parking ticket around $60. She told me pay for it. I was scare and didn’t know what to do. My husband came out. He told her we are not pay for your ticket. He give her a table a six people around $40 free lunch.
A few years ago. I paid a constructor labors and materials upfront to change my roof. He took my money and took off partial of my roof and left it open. It’s raining. I called him a lot of times. He kept making all kind of excuses and never came back. It’s my fault. I had to swallow whole.
You are not liable, that’s like saying if you recommend a contractor to work on someone’s house then they hire them and it does not work out well, you are liable to pay the contractor. The copywriter worked out well for you, but things change and you are not liable for someone else’s actions.
Maybe you can help him fix whatever he doesn’t like about the copywright he had done or something along those lines. You acted in good faith, these things happen.
@Mohamed
sorry, but WHAT a crock of #@*%
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.. but if you think that we can all go through life having to shut our mouths and not interact with others and make recommendations for fear of being liable for any wrongdoings of the recommended party.. then we all may as well just give up now.
The guy should have not paid up front.
He should also get an attorney to pursue the matter to punish the copywriter..NOT punish Eric.
So Mohamed when I recommend a certain food to you and you decide you want to try it.. you then have an adverse reaction to it.. from your logic.. I am liable.
Good luck with that. If this is how you think, you are deluded.
Geees.
Eric,
I feel for you and for Dragutin. However not only has one person been ripped off but your credibility is now on the line.
You have done an amazing job of taking people through all your lessons for free and built up a trust in us all. I certainly feel that you know best so if you recommend something I am more likely to be persuaded to give it a go. You have built up a following of people who look up to you to guide them on the rocky road of Internet marketing and simply by that equation you are morally responsible to be sure of the programmes/services that you recommend. I do understand that you had no problems with [redacted] but had only used him for one small job.
I have to agree with the advice to help with his freelance work, perhaps find someone else to do it. We can all learn from this, those that have read the story, Dragutin ( I bet he has learnt a lot) and yourself.
The problem is that people like myself (who is yet to make any money on the Internet) are bombarded with programmes claiming to make you thousands of dollars within weeks with ”killer websites and hordes of hungry customers desperate to give you their money”. They are very persuasive. So we turn to people like yourself who we trust to recommend things that do work.
Good luck
Oh and one more thing Mohamed,
You said.. “(11) An overwhelming majority of those who wrote in and expressed their opinion for or against does not make their opinion correct.”
Yes, TRUE.. but that line of thought means that there is no right or wrong, just opinion..so we may as well all go and be lawless individuals and who cares if public opinion says otherwise.
But, the MAJORITY of people here say NO, DO NOT pay him.
That means that there is a small group here who have an entitlement mentality, thinking the world owes them something if things go wrong and they do not take responsibility for there own actions or take action against those that hurt us.
Basically, if the SMALL majority here think that Eric OWES this guy anything, then they really need to take a good long hard look at themselves.
Now, having said that.. I would probably give this person who got ripped off a small token payment or some free training etc and stipulate it is a gift only.
Buddy, you are not responsible. Please I know you might want to help this gentleman, but business is business. Some ventures, you loose and in others you gain.
Put it the other way round, if your recommendation had paid off. If Mr. [redacted] had delivered a great salesletter and the salesletter had made our friend a lot of money would our friend pay you for your recommendation? I don’t think so. Please don’t do start this. It is not healthy business practice. Everybody want profits but no losses. Business is Business.
Eric
Of course you are not liable to pay him morally or legally, however.. like some others have mentioned the damage that could cause to your reputation by ignoring him could be …well… damaging.
I have put myself in both your position and dragutins and have a few pointers. he says in his conversations that he has maxed his cards, a situation we are all familiar with, so there may be more actually at stake for him than 1344 bucks, maybe his marriage, his self respect or anything, I think most of us have felt that way at some time so the issue is ‘probably not’ just monetary.
If I put myself in your position I agree 100% that justice is not served by you refunding and I would not suggest that. Someone else suggested a refund of a percentage as a goodwill gesture; again I do not suggest that. What my suggestion would be to make the best of this situation for both of you (as you obviously have compassion for this fellow) is that you let him know that justice is not served by a refund, but as a struggling marketer you could offer him assistance beyond your mailing list in terms of a critique of a proposed product or suggest how he may do it himself and/or perhaps a one time mailing to (one of) your list to promote his launch with the caveat that you do not personally promote it of course. If the product is good he will make sales that will recover his costs, thanks to you.
Hope that makes some kind of sense and I don’t think any of your readers would think it wrong to receive that mailing (although I could be wrong!) I feel this would hand a lifeline to your subscriber and show you as a marketer with integrity.
As a small side note, only this week I had a pitch from a marketer I truly respected and valued as having a high standard of integrity, he doesn’t pitch many things other than his own services and products which I always liked so when I get an email from him I read it and will always at least check it out. He was pitching a product that I went and looked at it was priced at only $67 but while the product and page really didn’t work for me as the promises were crazy, because this person had recommended it I felt it worth the small price, but changed my mind and hit the x to leave. The exit capture went into overdrive with a last ditch attempt to sell at $17 – I bought it and the same with the OTO so I paid $34 in total. I done this only because of the recommendation of this guy as he only ever pitches high end products so I figured he had seen some value in this product. Unfortunately my instinct was right; the product was absolute garbage, 4th rate rubbish. I don’t blame the recommender, I blame myself, however for the sake of less than $20 my ‘marketer with integrity, has lost a follower that has put thousands in his pocket over 3 or 4 years. That’s a lesson I have taken on board and all affiliates would do well to remember and may serve to show why I suggest what I do.
Although I do not believe Dragutin has the same complaint, how you deal with it may affect how others see you – I would not think bad if you said no and left it at that in this case but maybe you could get a lot of credibility by assisting in some way.
Incidentally I am about to launch a new service to stop things like this happening for my member (no cost membership) and if you ever find the time I would appreciate anyone critiquing my proposal, who knows, you may just want to become involved.
Sorry for the really long post
Regards
Matt
You are not liable unless it could be shown that you were aware that the copywriter was unreliable before you recommended him. There may be an issue regarding the genuineness of your recommendation if you were receiving a fee from the copywriter.
But either way the copywriter is primarily liable.
We all know that marketers (including yourself) get up to all sorts of hype to pull customers in and they rely to a great extent on the suggestibility of clients. Having said that, the basic tenet ‘Caveat Emptor’ – Buyer Beware – applies
Hi Eric,
I think that you are absolutely NOT responsible for the consequences of an agreement between Drakutin and the copywriter. Drakutin pretensions are a little bit foolish and if you accept them it could be a bad precedent for all affiliates.
My view is worthless. A legal opinion is the only thing to be considered.
My lay opinion (see above)is that the user’s contract was with the copywriter not with you.Any inability on the user’s part to gain recompense from the copywriter is not your responsibility. However,it is amazing how often an apparently commonsense view is not upheld in law.
Eric
I too subscribe to transparency in all matters, business dealings in particular. In this instance I would, like you, need to determine if my association with the copywriter is on a business basis or on a subjective personal observation / recommendation.
It is plainly obvious in this case that it is the latter and not the former and you are not responsible for financial recompense. If you were liable for financial recompense then every newspaper, magazine etc including electronic media, passing an opiniion or referral, would be liable for every word or sentence printed.
On the other side of the coin you did provide a personal opinion, albeit based upon personal experience and not heresay. Since you have had personal experience with this copywriter it would not be unreasonable to contact the copywriter pointing out that you would no longer be able to endorse his / her services if they are not prepared to treat customers with integrity. Bad publicity is often more powerful than financial recompense.
For future reference it would be prudent to add an endorsement to ALL correspondence, pointing out that it is the responsibilty of individuals to carry out their own due diligence.
It is unfortunate in this instance that a professional copywriter, whom you genuinely believed to be ethical, has proven otherwise and by default you are now tarred with the same brush.
I run my own business, not in the marketing arena I may add, and there is a salutory lesson for all in this. Reputation is EVERYTHING and woe to him / her that gives or allows their sacred word too lightly.