This is a follow-up to the post I wrote regarding affiliate liability as it pertains to a recent situation in my business.
In a nutshell…
I had previously recommended a certain copywriter [redacted]. On my recommendation, one of my readers hired the copywriter.
Unfortunately, the copywriter did not complete the work that he was paid $1344 to do (The agreement was for two sales letters plus 3 landing pages. The copywriter delivered only one sales letter which was irrelevant to the project according to the customer). Rightfully upset, the customer asked for the work to be finished, and when it never happened, he asked for a refund.
The copywriter stopped responding to the customer. The customer tried disputing the payment with PayPal, but by that time it was beyond PayPal’s 45-day limit.
Having exhausted those options, the customer asked ME for the refund, citing that he had trusted my recommendation.
So I blogged about it and asked two questions…
1) Am I legally liable?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Over 1000 comments were posted – thank you for all the great input!
Regarding the first question (Am I liable?), the responses were nearly unanimous.
Everyone seemed to agree that I was not legally liable for the situation. I had made the recommendation in good faith, and the buyer was responsible for exercising his own due diligence.
Regarding the second question (What should I do?), the responses were mixed.
The majority of commenters agreed that I should not pay the refund to the reader out of my own pocket. In fact, many stated that it could set a bad and potentially dangerous precedent for myself and other marketers.
The most popular opinion seemed to be that it is solely the copywriter’s responsibility to remedy the situation, and the matter is exclusively between the customer and the copywriter.
Some readers suggested that legal action be taken against the copywriter. I’m not a lawyer, but in my opinion it would not be worth the time or money required to pursue a civil case.
The legal costs would exceed the $1344 amount, and even if the customer were awarded a judgment including legal costs and interest, it seems unlikely that the copywriter would be able to pay it.
A few readers suggested taking it to the police, and I do think that this suggestion has merit. The copywriter was doing business in Houston, Texas, so a case could be filed with a local jurisdiction. Again, I don’t have any legal expertise, but based on what I’ve seen I think the customer may have enough evidence for a criminal fraud case.
Additionally, I discovered that there are several other people who are claiming similar problems with the same copywriter over the past couple of years. Those within the statute of limitations could potentially be added to the case as additional victims.
Some readers suggested that I get in touch with the copywriter to intervene in the situation. I liked this suggestion, and I tried hard to get in touch with him.
I emailed every known email address of the copywriter, I found him on Facebook and sent him a message, I left him a voicemail, and I even did some additional sleuthing and ran a background report on him in attempt to get contact information.
I was polite in my communication, and I even offered the opportunity for the copywriter to correct the situation, tell his side of the story, and potentially save his reputation.
Unfortunately I never heard back from him. I could have gone another step and contacted his relatives since I have their contact information too, but I felt that it would be inappropriate for me to cross that line in this situation. If the customer wanted to do that in his attempt to recover his money, that would be his prerogative.
Of course it’s possible that the copywriter was unable to respond due to extreme circumstances like injury, death, or even a month-long vacation off the grid. However, I believe those are unlikely scenarios considering the copywriter’s history.
In my research I found that he has allegedly treated other customers similarly in the past. He communicates with them in the beginning, but when things go south he cuts off the communication. Here is a thread in the Warrior forum [redacted] evidencing a couple of disgruntled customers who stopped receiving communication from him.
Now he has done the same thing to me too. When he was trying to get me to recommend his service to my subscribers, he emailed me several times and even called my home phone number a few times.
At the time I thought… wow, this guy is really on top of things. In retrospect I see a pattern that is typical of someone who is either a con-artist or has some serious personal problems and was starved for cash.
Another example of his “hit and run” style was his [redacted] membership that he launched last year. He signed up members who paid $97/month for “unlimited” sales letters. [redacted] claimed to have a team of writers working for him, but in his [redacted] “confession” in the Warrior Forum, he implies that he was doing all the work himself and quickly got burned out.
[redacted] then reportedly turned around and sold that membership site to another individual for $10,000, claiming that the site was bringing in $10,000 per month. According to the new site owner (who communicated with me on the condition of anonymity), he did not realize that he was in fact acquiring a collection of disgruntled customers who had not received the copywriting service for which they had paid.
Due to the toxicity of the situation, the new owner issued many refunds, and shut down the site, effectively losing his entire investment.
In spite of all this, the offer I made to [redacted] in my communications still stands. If he is willing to correct the situation, I’m willing to post his side of the story here on my blog… and I won’t even critique it.
Some readers thought I was being too harsh by potentially damaging the copywriter’s credibility. I contend that he damaged his own credibility.
In the previous blog post, I remained objective and did not attack the copywriter’s character at all. I presented the facts, and asked for input.
Today, on the other hand, I am calling his character into question. It’s a gut-wrenching thing for me to do, but I think it’s the right thing to do. Honestly, I hate blogs that “bash” people and drag their names through the mud. I’m not into that, and if you know me then you’ll know that’s not what I’m doing here.
A few readers felt I was being insensitive to the customer/victim by blogging about the situation. I can certainly understand that sentiment, and I’d be asking the same question.
In this case you just need to know that the customer was aware that I was going to write the article. He was OK with it, and he was grateful for the opportunity to publicize his injustice.
He was also very happy with my attempt to intervene in the situation.
Several people said I should “go with my gut”. Not a bad suggestion. For those who were intuitive enough to see that my conscience was bothering me, you’re right. I wouldn’t have blogged about it if I didn’t care.
On the one hand, emotions can make this kind of thing tricky, which is part of why I wanted to get some additional opinions on the matter. On the other hand, I do have a moral conscience that guides me, and ultimately I think I did go with my gut.
A minority of people said I should pay the refund, and their reasons were mixed.
Some said I should pay my commission to the customer, but in this situation I did not receive a commission from the copywriter.
Others said I should pay a percentage of the refund to the customer (suggestions of 10%, 33%, 50%, or perhaps an amount equal to the commission that I SHOULD have earned).
A couple of people thought I had a moral obligation to pay the full refund, citing that my recommendation was the sole basis of the buyer’s decision.
Others thought that I should pay it simply because I CAN afford it. They assumed that I am wealthier than the customer I referred, and therefore I should happily transfer some of my wealth to him.
Yet others said I should give the refund because of the positive PR it would bring me, and the goodwill that it would generate with my subscribers.
A good number of people said I should provide some other method of compensation.
Some said I should write the sales letter myself, since I know how to write sales copy.
Others said I should hire a copywriter to finish the job.
Yet others said I should provide some free coaching or give a bunch of my own products to the customer.
All very intriguing possibilities.
So you want to know what I decided?
The first thing I decided is that I want to make two things abundantly clear for the future:
1) I am not liable for your results or experience that occurs as a result of anything/anyone I recommend. Always proceed at your own risk.
2) I DO stand behind my recommendations. While I can’t be held liable for someone else’s poor service, I also will not tolerate my subscribers getting ripped off.
If you believe you have been the victim of a rip-off or scam as a result of my recommendation, I want to know about it. To the extent that I am reasonably able, I will try to get in touch with the other party to help you get the product, or get your refund.
You still need to go through the normal channels first (contact their support, request refund, etc.). But if all else fails, let me know and I’ll see what I can do. I’m not making any promises, but I’ll definitely see what I can do on a case-by-case basis. And hopefully there won’t be any more of THIS kind of case, because I’m going to be even more careful about what I recommend.
As I mentioned, I diligently tried to get in touch with the copywriter and was unable. So under normal circumstances, there’s probably not much else I would do in this situation.
However, I felt it was warranted to do something extra for this customer since I did turn his unfortunate situation into a nice case study on my blog!
So I got in touch with a copywriter named Paul Hooper-Kelly, who seems to have a stellar reputation and came recommended to me by my friend Jeremy Gislason.
Paul has pulled off some great successes for Jeremy – as well as other internet marketing top guns in a wide variety of niches – with conversion rates as high as 12.5% and sales well in excess of a million dollars from a single sales letter.
With this kind of success to his credit, Paul doesn’t work cheap. But if you’ve ever had a truly great sales letter written, you’ll understand that paying good money for high quality sales copy is actually more “affordable” than hiring a “cheap” copywriter.
After all, the true measure of a sales letter is how well it converts, and a good-converting sales letter can pay for itself quickly.
If [redacted] isn’t a con-artist, at the very least he can be faulted for charging too little for his sales letters.
That means something has to give.
Researching the market, understanding the product, and making that vital connection between the two is often overlooked by “cheap” writers– so the sales letter lacks the magic that makes it convert.
Or (as may have happened in this case) the writer is overwhelmed with work because he’s offering “bargain” prices– so he never delivers.
Being closely involved in the copywriting business, Paul knew this wasn’t the first time [redacted] had upset customers, bringing the copywriting profession into disrepute.
So, to prove not all copywriters are the same, Paul has agreed to write this reader’s unfinished sales letters on a pro bono basis!
So at this point, the problem is solved for the customer. And if [redacted] ever comes around, he owes Paul Hooper-Kelly… big time!
After inspecting Paul’s work and examining his credentials, I’ve also decided to recommend Paul in the gap that was left due to my “unendorsement” of [redacted]. I’m confident, from what I’ve heard from his happy clients, that he won’t be letting my readers down.
So, I’ve arranged for Paul to set up a special area on his site – accessible only by Eric’s Tips readers – where you can enjoy Paul’s world class copywriting for a much lower price than the general public pays for it (His normal price for a sales letter is $7500, but Eric’s Tips readers can save thousands of dollars. Other services are available too.)
So don’t order any services from his open pages. Instead, submit a ticket to my helpdesk if you’re serious about hiring a top-notch copywriter, and we’ll give you a secret link to check it out.
Now in case you’re wondering…
NO this whole thing was not some sort of publicity stunt so that I could recommend another copywriter. It just worked out this way, and I think it’s a good outcome for everyone.
Thanks again for all your input, and as always… you are welcome to leave your comments below.
Have a great day!
Eric,
I couldn’t agree with you more on your decision. Your conclusion on the matter seems more than fair and as usual you’ve gone way beyond the call of duty compared to what most other marketers would do.It’s no wonder everyone takes your recomendations so seriously.
🙂
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Hi Eric,
You seem to have arrived at the perfect solution!
You have solved your reader’s problem to his and your satisfaction and shown [redacted] is a man to be avoided.
A Win-Win-Win (the last win for future readers of your blog!)
Well done, I’m pleased it has turned out so well for all concerned.
Eric you done a good honest job of it well done,the problem just had to be aired.
I commend you on trying (and succeeding) to help the customer. However, I’m appalled that people think YOU should pay. I don’t see that at all. I’m glad that this incident has a good ending. Thanks,
Donna 🙂
Hey Eric,
good to see someone who’s willing to bring this kind of thing out in to the light, and also able to get a helpful result for the injured party at the same time.
well done!
cheers,
Matt Garrett
Well written–a good solution Eric!
Kudos to you for a great solution, and for bringing this out into the open. This willingness to openly admit to a mistake, and to come up with a creative win-win solution that pulls the whole industry up a notch is a great recommendation for anything you choose to endorse in the future. I for one will pay a bit more attention to your email from now on.
Thank you,
Robert
Sounds like you have been very fair and satisfied your first customer. So a good result in the end and I believe you have come through with your reputation intact.
Good on you Eric for taking the time to sort this out. Your a big man in my books.
Eric,
Well done and hats off to you for taking this level of responsibility. In reading your post, I realize that I probably would have acted in similar fashion. It’s a win for the client, it certainly shows your integrity, and it leaves the door cracked a little for the offender to recant and come to his senses (not that he will).
Again, I commend you. As a copywriter and marketer myself, I’m always concerned about how we are perceived. Now I can point to your example if someone tries to generalize in a negative way about those of use who do business on the Internet.
Thank you!
Ken “The Internet Marketing Geek” Harthun
Well done Eric.
God bless,
Wow Eric! Once again you are a shining star in the darkest of nights! I have been following you for over a year now and you always seem to be able to quickly make great decisions. I respect you very much for this one, great job brother! We love what you do!
A good via media, Eric. I hope the reader is happy– ’cause all’s well’ if it ends well!
Good solution to the problem Eric. The person who got shafted should be very happy and grateful.
Nicely Done Mate
To me you went above and beyond the call of duty. It is to your advantage and shows what a good and honest person you are.
I have always thought you were one of the “good guys” and you have now proved me right.
Glad to have you as one of my “leaders”.
Hi Eric,
I am glad things got resolved to mutual satisfaction. In the Bible it says no good deed will go unrewarded, and evil men will not prosper.
However I am totally perplexed and disgusted by the readers who suggested you were damaging [redacted]’s reputation.
Thanks for the heads up about Paul.
Eric,
Thank God and congratulations on finding an equalitiable solution. Personally I think you did too much for this guy. However, as long as you’re happy, the reader is happy and the copywritter is happy, I can find no fault in what was done.
I say it again. It is my money, if I get burned, it is my fault.
With this behind us, I look forward to more lessons about internet marketing.
Keep up the good work!!!
God Bless,
Nic Cramer
Hey Eric!
Excellent resolution to an very unhappy situation. I think it was a great idea to post this problem on your blog and get everyone’s feedback.
I’ve been following the replies to your initial post and really enjoyed hearing everyone’s input, ideas, & suggestions on how to solve the problem. This solution is probably more than anyone expected for an outcome.
I think you went above and beyond what the majority of marketers would have done in a similar situation in trying to help resolve the problem. Keep up the great work!
Mike
I am impressed, Eric,
Being a firm believer in ethics, and also have created courses for professionals on ethics, you have handled this situation very well and brought an important issue to the forefront of the IM industry. Making blind recommendations without really knowing who or what a person is recommending, can become a very touchy issue – brand/image damaging to the person making that recommendation.
It was interesting to read some of the comments as it displayed the diversity of thought within the IM industry.
“It is what you learn after you know it all that counts” – John Wooden (just passed away yesterday, June 4th, at 99 yrs old).
Eric,
You are a first class act.
Stacy
Eric,
You did the right thing and helped as you could. Paul is helping you as well in this situation, so that should close up this issue.
and again…sometimes we learn more by failures than successes……
This is how to create a world-class image … turn a negative into a positive with creative passion to do the right thing. Well done Eric!
Hi Eric,
I have read the above post and I still don’t believe it was up to you to do anything – I couldn’t believe alot of people still wanted you to either pay half or offer your services,etc….BUT, like the TRUE CHAMPION you are you have managed to come to a conclusion and yet still offer to remedy the situation as best as you can. As for the publicity stunt (as put by others) that is absolutely ridiculous..you don’t need any publicity – you are a man of high standards in my eyes and the Internet Marketing field, you are also a talented marketer true to your word and if it wasn’t for your kindness and your offerings to help others out we would all be paying alot of money for what you give out for Free..Keep up the good work Eric, I will still RECOMMEND you HIGHLY to others. Theres no need to wish you the best, as you are the BEST! Karenxxx
Nicely done, Eric. You were able to get a great blog post series out of it in the process, AND strike up a new and likely profitable partnership. Pay attention and learn, fellow readers, from a perfect example of how to turn a negative situation into a winner. What I find interesting is that no one of us commenters –if i’m wrong correct me– made such a suggestion as Eric came up with as a solution. Why? That might be indicative of why either Eric is so successful and we’re not, or why being successful like him gives him time to really consider and pursue such creative/profitable solutions.
I think the original customer was out of line for requesting the refund from Eric in the first place, and should be ashamed. Though I can see if i lost $1300, i might be willing to try anything. But again, that ‘anything for money’ mentality is what caused the problem in the first place.
Epic Traffic Systems big bonus
Way to Go Eric! Good decision.
I think I want to learn how to copywrite!
But I also think you did the right thing, and this is an awesome opportunity for Paul as well.
In the end its all about networking !
Deb
Hi Eric,
Truly amazing–couldn’t have worked out better!
Well done and God Bless
Philip
I was a Regional Service Manager for a car manufacturer. I am sure you can imagine, people with their cars (especially if it is not working properly) can become quite irate and often times very unreasonable. A person who functions in this Regional Manager capacity, like me, for a long time becomes an expert in complaint resolution. The car business is driven by customer satisfaction these days so coming up with the most fair solution to any given problem is paramount. I can glean two things from this writing of yours. First, you used this as a learning experience and took the time to assemble all the available information you could before coming up with your answer. This is quite admirable. Second, you simply could not have come up with a better solution for everyone involved by my way of thinking. You have gained knowledge from this whole scenario. Your customer (an upset rather unreasonable customer expecting you to pay) has got a fantastic solution. And the bad boy copywriter; well let’s just say, he is going to get what’s coming to him one way or another; time will take care of that. Great job Eric!
Eric;
I started to respond to the original post about this situation due to the fact that I had been through a scam not that long ago. The difference was, the scam involved a high profile speaker and author whom I admire. The problem was, that response would have been a book. I will also tell you, you went beyond your responsibility.
I am happy that this situation turned out like it did. I applaud not only your efforts to resolve the matter for one of your customers, I applaud Paul Hooper-Kelly as well for stepping into the hornets nest and taking a chance to correct someone elses short comings.
I strongly encourage the customer to pursue all legal avenues. I can speak from personal experience, it takes time but it works.
Great job resolving this.
Hi Eric:
Thanks for the follow-up with this case. It is great to see that you intervened and the problem was solved for your reader/customer.
Regarding: The buyer was responsible for not exercising his own due diligence –
Could you advise the best source or way to conduct a research to see if a person is credible or a program is worth dealing with?
Thanks,
Kathleen
Copywriting is definitely something I need to get better at !
More words of wisdom Eric, as usual !
Eric –
You’ve just demonstrated the importance &
the value of “customer service”. Also, I believe
your action(s) indicate your commitment to
REALLY helping people is greater than “devotion
to dollars”. That quality is not very easy to find
in the Internet marketing “neighborhood”.
“What goes around, comes around”, & your
“good karma” account just got bigger.
Thanks for being one of the few “good guys”!
Hi Eric! You did the right thing and I’m sure that this was a gut wrenching experience for you and the client. The part of the story that should have people pay attention is the fact that the copywriter called and emailed constantly so you would promote him to your list. I had a similar experience with a company called PaySystems – a 3rd part payment system like 2CO or PayPal – many years ago. They called me for weeks asking me to use them more in my business. At the time I was selling about $15,000 a week through PayPal. They lowered my rate and fees to entice me to run more business through them. About 7-8 days after I switched my payment methods to use them they suddenly stopped paying me and thousands of other merchants who used them! I called, I threatened them and got nowhere. I lost a lot of money and realized later that they knew they were closing and were trying anything to get money. Lesson learned- if the other party is really desperate to do business with you they are probably hiding something – and it’s not something good.
Eric, you are to be commended for coming up with a very generous solution. But I am deeply disturbed by those who thought you OUGHT to refund the customer’s money from your own pocket. Since the end of WWII we seem to have raised 3 generations to believe no one has to take responsibility for his own actions, that when something goes wrong it is ALWAYS someone else’s fault, and therefore somebody else should pay. Does no one believe in taking individual responsibility any more?
Eric:
I think you have handled this in the best way possible. [redacted] will not be able to swindle anyone who has read this, and that is how it should be. On the other hand, you have enhanced your reputation as someone who cares and will go the extra mile.
Hi Eric
Well done. It’s good to see you took the time to sort it out for him.
I hope he’s happy for all you have done for him.
great work Eric.
Victor
Caveat Emptor!
What BP has caused to the world’s ecological system with untold damages than can only be guesstimated and our losses only minimally recovered there has also been, and will always be, as devastating an oil layered over the internet.
Snakeoil has been marketed and sold in the marketing channels of ecommerce in gallons and profit that likely would match BP the past decade.
Early Social Security forced by a heart attackeight year ago brought me to explore deep driling of the internet myself.
Outlandish pictures of Rolls Royce in front of mansions on the shores of Hawaii graced every other site’s landing pages; doctored checks from ClickBank and PayPal and purported bank statements covered it all like today’s oil on sea gulls.
I could, and may very well, write a book on What NOT TO DO in ECommerce. Eric, Jim Cockrum of EBay book note and Paul Meyer of EBiz are my stalwarts of dependability following these years averaging I’m sure 50 hours a week online and aimed at finding satisfaction in a product, blog or affiliations online to gain revenue.
Two things top my conclusions to this point. First is the BBB’s admonition that if something sounds too good to be true it probably is. The other is advice first gleaned from Paul; DO NOT
purchase any program or materials you are not positive you intend and WILL USE immediately.
Personally my online purchases remain under $500 in these 8 years. (Sorry Eric, lol.)
My extreme admiration for the way you handled the situation, and a big hand of applause for Paul, whose generous offer speaks volumes about his own character. Your professionalism and character serve as a shining example to us all.
Eric,
Bravo!
You have gone above and beyond, which is a genuine testament to your character and standards. You are a shining example to the marketing community
sincerely,
Tim Ackley
admin@timackley.com
Wow!! Eric,you are the real deal!! I completely agree with how you have handled this situation. You definitely WERE NOT liable for a recommendation given in good faith. As for [redacted], he is the epitomy of the lousy marketers that you need to be very wary of!! I am truly impressed with your integrity and committment to your readers. [redacted] please pay attention!!! Debbie
This sums it all up Eric. Fair and Just.
Great job of solving the problem in a great way and teaching everyone about this situation.
Hats off to ya!
Glen Wayne
Eric! wow. You have really put alot of time into this matter. I do also believe the outcome was great. It’s alot to lear from this case. I think you solved it brilliant. Thanks for sharing!!!
The real point of my post is to say Eric has handled this situation in a truly professional and ethical manner. As for the end user, you are obviously fortunate in finally deriving your desired product. To our benevolent copywriter; you sir have enriched yourself in a manner no amount of money, (not even BP’s) could buy as has our main man, Eric.
The mention of discussion of these events in Warrior’s Forum only solidifies your credibility further.
So few dollars yet so much selection to filter in ECommerce. So little time yet so much information available, good and bad, with so much to learn about ECommerce.
This report and the BP story have something in common…our thirst to fulfill our needs. Don’t blame your local service station for the oil spill anymore than you would blame Eric for handling a request to supply a business friend a copywriter recommendation. How were either of them to know?
How valuable are these blogs from Eric? Will be forwarded to my online business friends and definitely saved for future reference by me and likely quoted numerous times.
And those other two bloggers mentioned? I still stand by them and their record as I do Eric.
Is everything I’ve post 100% truthful? So far as I know it to be.
What you did was a class act, but I wasn’t surprised because I always felt you were one of the good guys.
Very well done Eric, a brilliant solution. A great resolution for the aggrieved, a great plug for Paul, an appropriate publication of [redacted]’s out-ethics to serve as a warning against trusting him and a stellar example of setting a great example. A salutary lesson to look at a person’s products before one recommends them.
Dear Eric,
Thank you for sharing this information with us all of us… This is really great news to hear for you were able to solve this situation for everyone!!! Thank you for all of the good advice and tips you have given me up to this point and time…
Good thinking Eric, you did the right thing and I’m sure most of your readers agreed with your solution, God bless
Eric, Great work for solving the situation with respect to all of us…
http://www.trumpnetwork.com/Martinez/ThompsonProf