This is a follow-up to the post I wrote regarding affiliate liability as it pertains to a recent situation in my business.
In a nutshell…
I had previously recommended a certain copywriter [redacted]. On my recommendation, one of my readers hired the copywriter.
Unfortunately, the copywriter did not complete the work that he was paid $1344 to do (The agreement was for two sales letters plus 3 landing pages. The copywriter delivered only one sales letter which was irrelevant to the project according to the customer). Rightfully upset, the customer asked for the work to be finished, and when it never happened, he asked for a refund.
The copywriter stopped responding to the customer. The customer tried disputing the payment with PayPal, but by that time it was beyond PayPal’s 45-day limit.
Having exhausted those options, the customer asked ME for the refund, citing that he had trusted my recommendation.
So I blogged about it and asked two questions…
1) Am I legally liable?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Over 1000 comments were posted – thank you for all the great input!
Regarding the first question (Am I liable?), the responses were nearly unanimous.
Everyone seemed to agree that I was not legally liable for the situation. I had made the recommendation in good faith, and the buyer was responsible for exercising his own due diligence.
Regarding the second question (What should I do?), the responses were mixed.
The majority of commenters agreed that I should not pay the refund to the reader out of my own pocket. In fact, many stated that it could set a bad and potentially dangerous precedent for myself and other marketers.
The most popular opinion seemed to be that it is solely the copywriter’s responsibility to remedy the situation, and the matter is exclusively between the customer and the copywriter.
Some readers suggested that legal action be taken against the copywriter. I’m not a lawyer, but in my opinion it would not be worth the time or money required to pursue a civil case.
The legal costs would exceed the $1344 amount, and even if the customer were awarded a judgment including legal costs and interest, it seems unlikely that the copywriter would be able to pay it.
A few readers suggested taking it to the police, and I do think that this suggestion has merit. The copywriter was doing business in Houston, Texas, so a case could be filed with a local jurisdiction. Again, I don’t have any legal expertise, but based on what I’ve seen I think the customer may have enough evidence for a criminal fraud case.
Additionally, I discovered that there are several other people who are claiming similar problems with the same copywriter over the past couple of years. Those within the statute of limitations could potentially be added to the case as additional victims.
Some readers suggested that I get in touch with the copywriter to intervene in the situation. I liked this suggestion, and I tried hard to get in touch with him.
I emailed every known email address of the copywriter, I found him on Facebook and sent him a message, I left him a voicemail, and I even did some additional sleuthing and ran a background report on him in attempt to get contact information.
I was polite in my communication, and I even offered the opportunity for the copywriter to correct the situation, tell his side of the story, and potentially save his reputation.
Unfortunately I never heard back from him. I could have gone another step and contacted his relatives since I have their contact information too, but I felt that it would be inappropriate for me to cross that line in this situation. If the customer wanted to do that in his attempt to recover his money, that would be his prerogative.
Of course it’s possible that the copywriter was unable to respond due to extreme circumstances like injury, death, or even a month-long vacation off the grid. However, I believe those are unlikely scenarios considering the copywriter’s history.
In my research I found that he has allegedly treated other customers similarly in the past. He communicates with them in the beginning, but when things go south he cuts off the communication. Here is a thread in the Warrior forum [redacted] evidencing a couple of disgruntled customers who stopped receiving communication from him.
Now he has done the same thing to me too. When he was trying to get me to recommend his service to my subscribers, he emailed me several times and even called my home phone number a few times.
At the time I thought… wow, this guy is really on top of things. In retrospect I see a pattern that is typical of someone who is either a con-artist or has some serious personal problems and was starved for cash.
Another example of his “hit and run” style was his [redacted] membership that he launched last year. He signed up members who paid $97/month for “unlimited” sales letters. [redacted] claimed to have a team of writers working for him, but in his [redacted] “confession” in the Warrior Forum, he implies that he was doing all the work himself and quickly got burned out.
[redacted] then reportedly turned around and sold that membership site to another individual for $10,000, claiming that the site was bringing in $10,000 per month. According to the new site owner (who communicated with me on the condition of anonymity), he did not realize that he was in fact acquiring a collection of disgruntled customers who had not received the copywriting service for which they had paid.
Due to the toxicity of the situation, the new owner issued many refunds, and shut down the site, effectively losing his entire investment.
In spite of all this, the offer I made to [redacted] in my communications still stands. If he is willing to correct the situation, I’m willing to post his side of the story here on my blog… and I won’t even critique it.
Some readers thought I was being too harsh by potentially damaging the copywriter’s credibility. I contend that he damaged his own credibility.
In the previous blog post, I remained objective and did not attack the copywriter’s character at all. I presented the facts, and asked for input.
Today, on the other hand, I am calling his character into question. It’s a gut-wrenching thing for me to do, but I think it’s the right thing to do. Honestly, I hate blogs that “bash” people and drag their names through the mud. I’m not into that, and if you know me then you’ll know that’s not what I’m doing here.
A few readers felt I was being insensitive to the customer/victim by blogging about the situation. I can certainly understand that sentiment, and I’d be asking the same question.
In this case you just need to know that the customer was aware that I was going to write the article. He was OK with it, and he was grateful for the opportunity to publicize his injustice.
He was also very happy with my attempt to intervene in the situation.
Several people said I should “go with my gut”. Not a bad suggestion. For those who were intuitive enough to see that my conscience was bothering me, you’re right. I wouldn’t have blogged about it if I didn’t care.
On the one hand, emotions can make this kind of thing tricky, which is part of why I wanted to get some additional opinions on the matter. On the other hand, I do have a moral conscience that guides me, and ultimately I think I did go with my gut.
A minority of people said I should pay the refund, and their reasons were mixed.
Some said I should pay my commission to the customer, but in this situation I did not receive a commission from the copywriter.
Others said I should pay a percentage of the refund to the customer (suggestions of 10%, 33%, 50%, or perhaps an amount equal to the commission that I SHOULD have earned).
A couple of people thought I had a moral obligation to pay the full refund, citing that my recommendation was the sole basis of the buyer’s decision.
Others thought that I should pay it simply because I CAN afford it. They assumed that I am wealthier than the customer I referred, and therefore I should happily transfer some of my wealth to him.
Yet others said I should give the refund because of the positive PR it would bring me, and the goodwill that it would generate with my subscribers.
A good number of people said I should provide some other method of compensation.
Some said I should write the sales letter myself, since I know how to write sales copy.
Others said I should hire a copywriter to finish the job.
Yet others said I should provide some free coaching or give a bunch of my own products to the customer.
All very intriguing possibilities.
So you want to know what I decided?
The first thing I decided is that I want to make two things abundantly clear for the future:
1) I am not liable for your results or experience that occurs as a result of anything/anyone I recommend. Always proceed at your own risk.
2) I DO stand behind my recommendations. While I can’t be held liable for someone else’s poor service, I also will not tolerate my subscribers getting ripped off.
If you believe you have been the victim of a rip-off or scam as a result of my recommendation, I want to know about it. To the extent that I am reasonably able, I will try to get in touch with the other party to help you get the product, or get your refund.
You still need to go through the normal channels first (contact their support, request refund, etc.). But if all else fails, let me know and I’ll see what I can do. I’m not making any promises, but I’ll definitely see what I can do on a case-by-case basis. And hopefully there won’t be any more of THIS kind of case, because I’m going to be even more careful about what I recommend.
As I mentioned, I diligently tried to get in touch with the copywriter and was unable. So under normal circumstances, there’s probably not much else I would do in this situation.
However, I felt it was warranted to do something extra for this customer since I did turn his unfortunate situation into a nice case study on my blog!
So I got in touch with a copywriter named Paul Hooper-Kelly, who seems to have a stellar reputation and came recommended to me by my friend Jeremy Gislason.
Paul has pulled off some great successes for Jeremy – as well as other internet marketing top guns in a wide variety of niches – with conversion rates as high as 12.5% and sales well in excess of a million dollars from a single sales letter.
With this kind of success to his credit, Paul doesn’t work cheap. But if you’ve ever had a truly great sales letter written, you’ll understand that paying good money for high quality sales copy is actually more “affordable” than hiring a “cheap” copywriter.
After all, the true measure of a sales letter is how well it converts, and a good-converting sales letter can pay for itself quickly.
If [redacted] isn’t a con-artist, at the very least he can be faulted for charging too little for his sales letters.
That means something has to give.
Researching the market, understanding the product, and making that vital connection between the two is often overlooked by “cheap” writers– so the sales letter lacks the magic that makes it convert.
Or (as may have happened in this case) the writer is overwhelmed with work because he’s offering “bargain” prices– so he never delivers.
Being closely involved in the copywriting business, Paul knew this wasn’t the first time [redacted] had upset customers, bringing the copywriting profession into disrepute.
So, to prove not all copywriters are the same, Paul has agreed to write this reader’s unfinished sales letters on a pro bono basis!
So at this point, the problem is solved for the customer. And if [redacted] ever comes around, he owes Paul Hooper-Kelly… big time!
After inspecting Paul’s work and examining his credentials, I’ve also decided to recommend Paul in the gap that was left due to my “unendorsement” of [redacted]. I’m confident, from what I’ve heard from his happy clients, that he won’t be letting my readers down.
So, I’ve arranged for Paul to set up a special area on his site – accessible only by Eric’s Tips readers – where you can enjoy Paul’s world class copywriting for a much lower price than the general public pays for it (His normal price for a sales letter is $7500, but Eric’s Tips readers can save thousands of dollars. Other services are available too.)
So don’t order any services from his open pages. Instead, submit a ticket to my helpdesk if you’re serious about hiring a top-notch copywriter, and we’ll give you a secret link to check it out.
Now in case you’re wondering…
NO this whole thing was not some sort of publicity stunt so that I could recommend another copywriter. It just worked out this way, and I think it’s a good outcome for everyone.
Thanks again for all your input, and as always… you are welcome to leave your comments below.
Have a great day!
Very good solution
A person’s reputation is enhanced or not by the company they keep and who they recommend. What Eric has shown is the exceptional value he places on his own integrity and that of an industry he knows and loves. The lessons learned are well worth the cost of everyone involved. Thank you Eric for bringing such an interesting case study to us.
I’m not ashamed to call you my brother in Christ.
You do us all proud as believers and Internet marketers.
Eric, your conclusion seems more than fair to me. I hope we all learn from you and treat our readers along the same line. Good job.
Great response Eric! It is nice that you pursued this until a ‘higher order’ result that is congruent with your core values became available. I admire that trait. I wish you well.
Karl
Hey Eric! You are 4 aces or a king high royal flush in my book! Damage [redacted]’s reputation??? He’s already done that big time himself! Everyone including theguy who got shafted should remember one thing. Never, Never ever pay upfront like this guy did. Always work a deal where you pay when the work is completed to your satisfaction or in parts as each part is completed to your satisfaction. I agree that maybe someone should pursue a fraud complaint with thwe local police. This guy should be behind bars. Good Luck, and keep up the good work! Stan
I have read your account of this whole scenario Eric.
I am glad that you posted it. You were very fair in your representation. You gave every benefit of doubt to [redacted] as far as the way it appears that he has handled this situation.
In my mind, here is the bottom line for all of us. Caveat emptor…”Let the buyer beware”.
I just got burned by my air conditioning company. Fault…mine. I should have done a better job of screening my choice of vendors. I certainly wouldn’t blame the person who told me they had great service.
Over time it’s bound to happen to all of us…we will end up with the short end of the stick from time to time.
One last cleche for any who reads my words. But oh, so true.
“Choose your battles wisely”.
Of all the tips you’ve given, your own example here is one of the best tips I’ve gotten anywhere. It shows that in the end, integrity wins. That scamming copywriter can change his identity all he likes, but he’ll never build up a steady, long term following the way you have. I just turned down a writing assignment for an obvious scammer and although I need the money, it really felt good to say no. Now I’ve just got to start applying more of your tips to my own website and blog and maybe in time I won’t even have to be tempted anymore! Thank you for a great service.
I believe that you have taken all the appropriate action that an RESPONSIBLE owner of a business could do based on the situation. I personally read the Warrior Forum thread you referenced in the post last night and I was amazed how [redacted] accepted responsibility for his actions. I know that now his business will hurt as a result of this and other fiasco but hopefully all will be well with him.
Such a stellar solution you came up with Eric – Bravo! Thank you for being an ezxample in the IM, and sharing the story, and for caring for your customers!
Glad to see this matter has reached a happy conclusion. I’ve been waiting with anticipation for the outcome.
What a good idea putting it to your forum jury for their views and you did a good fair job in delivering the “sentance”.
Justice has been served.
Court Ajourned.
Eric, as always you are a man of integrity, honesty and compassion. Great solution.
(I just read this for the first time and have not read any of the comments.) Have you considered putting up a site that’s search engine optimized with his name? Put everyone’s story there with comments enabled. Then if he wants to make things right, he can post. With the internet the way it is, there’s no reason anyone should be able to get away with something like this. Post his facebook profile and twitter and website, the whole nine yards. If he wants to be successful, he’ll have to come clean! By the way, your solution was brilliant. I just hate to see anyone get robbed who doesn’t have to be.
Eric,
You have again have gone above and beyond. And, the copywriter Paul Hooper-Kelly just locked in some great pr for being generous with his offer. This customer should be thanking you both like no tomorrow for what is getting. You and Jeremy are good examples of what it takes to be long term marketers.
I joined Eric’s Tips 3/27/2006 and have been in Jeremy Gislason’s surefirewealth.com since 4/10/05
p.s. The links on the welcome emails from both of you still are active another sign of a long term business.
Eric – u da man – I really loved the way you settled this!
Thanks Matt, and everyone else!
“Being a firm believer in ethics, and also have created courses for professionals on ethics, you have handled this situation very well and brought an important issue to the forefront of the IM industry.”
Cool – thanks!
I applaud the way you handled this situation. And I especially appreciate your bringing this out into the open so we could all benefit. Integrity and ethical behavior is everything on the NET. With this discussion, you have given a refresher course on several issues that really matter when one is building an internet business. Thanks again for your shining example.
“I applaud Paul Hooper-Kelly as well for stepping into the hornets nest and taking a chance to correct someone elses short comings.”
Absolutely!
Eric, I have not had time to review, nor do I want to, all the things involved with your statements, but lets see what happens with the person who is suing Google because they recommended that walking area in which a lady was hurt. (In the national news on TV sometime in the last few days but I really only heard what I saw(:-] ) (It may be on point to this matter, or not) (Will it ever end?) I think you are doing the right thing, however, but the venue, wording of your writings and the law (and a bunch of other things) often step in to make things a whole lot different than what they oughta be. After 43 years handling insurance claims litigation in the millions of dollar range, who knows!!. I am retired from that sort of thing now and that’s why I have little interest in researching it, anyway.
Just think your solution for this is interesting and prudent and good business. WAY TO GO! Someone will probably disagree with my rant here, but personally I don’t care, cause if you have done something like you did here and you feel good about it and your readers/customers also do, than it’s great!!!
“if the other party is really desperate to do business with you they are probably hiding something”
That’s exactly right Dave. In retrospect, I recognize it as a “pattern” that I’ve seen used by various scammers. I wish I had caught it sooner.
“Will be forwarded to my online business friends and definitely saved for future reference by me and likely quoted numerous times.”
Thank you 🙂
“I joined Eric’s Tips 3/27/2006”
Thanks for being a valued long-time subscriber 🙂
Eric,
I respect what you did, it is more than enough.
Thanks
Good on you, Eric
The only way to go in the long term is the honest way. I’ll bet you sleep well at night
Eric,
You’re top notch and have integrity.
That’s hard to find these days.
That’s why I follow you!
Sharon
Well done sir,
The cynic in me says that you may hear this kind of inquery again, despite your fresh disclaimer. I hope not. Perhaps your new relationship with Mr.H-K opens an interesting new insight into services availible to IM.
Thanks again…
Perfect solution! I just learned something myself!
Hey Eric, Nicely done…I heard of a fella named Solomon who made some noteworthy decisions a while back, I wouldn’t call you his equal but I wholly respect your decision in this one, The man who got ripped off may still have the option of small claims court,
with a minimum of cost (filing fee, registered letter) he may get this scammer before a real judge, canceled checks, or paypal reciepts would be good evidence, worth a shot…Bob
Eric:
Very well done explanation and analysis of this unfortunate situation! I believe this happens more often than we choose to believe, not just in the copy writing arena. The old adage “caveat emptor” or “buyer beware” is very appropriate here; one must do their own due diligence before proceeding with any endeavor, especially when an investment is involved. Your recommendation was made in good faith and unfortunately turned sour for your reader, however such is life and these types of things will happen, just the way it is! I applaud you for your sincere feelings for those that trust in your knowledge and recommendations, and I also admire that you asked your readers for advice! Thanks for being “REAL”!
Eric,
I am happy to hear that you were able to come up with a solution to this issue. Though even now the term “Buyer Beware” still rings through my mind when I think of the situation. You have proved your devotion to your word and your own ethics (which seem to be lacking in all industries). Your honesty and integrity is what keeps me reading your posts, and recommending your site to everyone interested in starting an internet business. Don’t ever change. Thanks for showing that not all Internet Marketers are scammers and thieves (which is what my own mother accused me of when I told her I was starting an online business, she has been proven wrong since).
Keep up the Good Works
Eric – you’ve handled that brilliantly – very fair and ethical to all concerned, helping to protect your customers (past, present & future), accepting responsibility for your recommendations but not for the outcomes (which would not be honoring the free will of others to make their own decisions), and taking action which will be a win for all except [redacted] (and may in the end be a win for him, since people should not get away with fraud, especially when it becomes a repeated pattern of behaviour!)
You’ve also got at least one reader (but I suspect many more!) who has marked you as worth following in future, as standing out above the general internet marketer & their barrage of deletable emails…..
I have been following this story with interest because I was scammed for $15,000 over 2 years ago. Like you Eric, I have a strong sense of fairness and ethics and I set about researching and reporting my story on the internet. Unfortunately I was a newbie and did not have a profile and the scammer laughed at me when I warned him of my intention to expose him.
Consequently, I built a blog and a list of 80 victims (a mere tip of the iceberg) some of whom had been scammed for over $80,000. The total scammed from just the people on my list was over $1million.
I reported this “Sharketer” to every authority I could find & eventually got the attention of the FBI, who appointed the LAPD fraud squad to investigate. Even Fox News contacted me to do a story.
I kept emailing the scammer to keep him informed of each of my actions. He bullied me and started to retaliate online, smearing my name also, calling ME a scammer. But I did not relent. His reputation took a severe battering, from me and the many other victims on my list. Never overlook the power of social media. (I posted about this recently on my blog)
To shut me up, the scammer eventually paid me plus, because I had hired a great lawyer, extra for damages. I will continue to encourage scam victims to never give up. I wrote an ebook that I am happy to donate to any scam victim who wants to know the steps to getting their money back.
Due to a loophole in the law, the scammer is still scamming! Authorities cannot arrest him because he got signatures from his victims under false pretenses. I still receive emails from people who found my old reports on various forums and complaint sites.
Eric, I applaud you for what you have done for the victim of the copy scam. Yes, expose the “Sharketers” of this world. Bring on “Trial by Social Media”. Sharketers have no place on the internet and they will not survive. Honesty has always been the best policy.
What you have done, Eric, has not only helped that victim and warned the world about the copy Sharketer, but you have won the hearts of your devoted fans and gained possibly thousands more followers.
You are the living proof that to be successful, one should be transparent and have a penchant for helping others.
I speak for all of the above who followed and commented on this topic. We love and respect you Eric. Your ethics are beyond reproach.
(Sidenote. If anyone would like a free copy of the ebook “Sharketer!”, please contact Eric.)
Hey Eric,
I think you did the right thing (I would not expect anything else. I used [redacted] for a sales letter as well and he did deliver, but that was some time ago. I also hired him to do a PR for me as part of another of his promotions and he flaked out. Can’t recall if I paid him or not. He came recommended by a well known IM person as well. I never held it against the person who recommended him.
Although I don’t feel you are in any way liable, you handled a sticky situation with grace and honor.
Brilliant!
The perfect hybrid.
Almost biblical
And totally marketable.
Julia
Great job Eric! There should be more people on earth that care as you do. Find the problem fix it and you will be on top. Thank you for letting me know what the out come of this event was. Have a great day and keep up the positive out look on your life’s work. JB
Thank you, Eric, for allowing the WISDOM OF GOD to flow through you. You flew the flag high as a marketer who honours Jesus Christ.
[redacted] doesn’t mind about his own reputation,Why
should you?
Congratulatios!
You do help Internet Business to be clean!!!
Thanks for the informative sharing. I believe it would help a lot of people to think through when faced with situation like this or closely similar.
Regards.
Hi Eric
I’m so glad you were able to find a win-win-win solution to this situation. I think in the process we have all learned many lessons, but the most important one is that when there is a will there is a way… and you have indeed found it, a solution that is fair and just for everyone.
Congratulations on being willing to “take the bull by the horn” and look for this type of solution.
Marcelle
Hi Eric,
You are indeed “THE BEST” — your solution as well as resolution of this whole issue goes way beyond what anyone’s expectations could be, would be or should be. As for Paul Hooper-Kelly, his name is one we would all benefit from knowing, and I thank you for that and for everything you do. You are the best, that’s for sure 😀
Hi, you did an amazing job here. I will be following your work and expertise closer then ever.
thanks
Cheers everyone
Wilf
In the State of California, my brother-in-law recommended a photographer to a friend. The deal went south when the photographer did not deliver. It went to court and my brother-in-law had to pay five thousand bucks just for the recommendation – and all three of these guys were friends. They are not friends now.
Bill
Very good solution to a sticky problem. You are an excellent mediator.
Personally, am not at all happy with the solution. I really really think you should contact the police too. At least if you have any sort of consumer courts in the US, you can probably file a complaint with a simple handwritten letter – anybody can do it. Filing a police complaint isn’t that difficult either.
Clearly the guy is a remorseless lowlife con-artist. I would so hate to see him go scotch-free. Otherwise it will be a sad ending for me.
Especially because something similar has happened to me in the past and I feel so enraged every time I think about it. These guys literally taunt and mock you knowing there’s not much you can do.
@ Gail Fay, I am sorry he got away from the authorities but kudos to you for getting justice on your own. You a hero in my book.
“To whom much is given, much is expected.” And you, sir, have certainly done much! If you don’t have much, I expect you certainly will…
of course, that does depend on your definition of “MUCH”
Eric,
I truly believe you went above and beyond the call of duty in resolving this case.
Congratulations, all the way around.
Victor Winebrenner
Caretaker Extraordinaire
Hi Eric,
That is the best possible outcome, and then a whole lot more.
Have fun,
Mike
#1 I would not trust PayPal in any way shape or form. They screwed me too to the tune of $4000 plus. They do not stand behind their customers. There is an FBI internet fraud division to file with but I found that was a waste of time since I have never heard from them either. I didn’t even get a case number.
So it is a matter of if you do monetary business on the internet, CHECK OUT THE PERSON/COMPANY FIRST or have a good supply of oars because you will be wearing them out! I applaud you Eric for helping your reader find a solution. You are one of the few on the net to be trusted. Thanks Eric for being a standup guy.