This is a follow-up to the post I wrote regarding affiliate liability as it pertains to a recent situation in my business.
In a nutshell…
I had previously recommended a certain copywriter [redacted]. On my recommendation, one of my readers hired the copywriter.
Unfortunately, the copywriter did not complete the work that he was paid $1344 to do (The agreement was for two sales letters plus 3 landing pages. The copywriter delivered only one sales letter which was irrelevant to the project according to the customer). Rightfully upset, the customer asked for the work to be finished, and when it never happened, he asked for a refund.
The copywriter stopped responding to the customer. The customer tried disputing the payment with PayPal, but by that time it was beyond PayPal’s 45-day limit.
Having exhausted those options, the customer asked ME for the refund, citing that he had trusted my recommendation.
So I blogged about it and asked two questions…
1) Am I legally liable?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Over 1000 comments were posted – thank you for all the great input!
Regarding the first question (Am I liable?), the responses were nearly unanimous.
Everyone seemed to agree that I was not legally liable for the situation. I had made the recommendation in good faith, and the buyer was responsible for exercising his own due diligence.
Regarding the second question (What should I do?), the responses were mixed.
The majority of commenters agreed that I should not pay the refund to the reader out of my own pocket. In fact, many stated that it could set a bad and potentially dangerous precedent for myself and other marketers.
The most popular opinion seemed to be that it is solely the copywriter’s responsibility to remedy the situation, and the matter is exclusively between the customer and the copywriter.
Some readers suggested that legal action be taken against the copywriter. I’m not a lawyer, but in my opinion it would not be worth the time or money required to pursue a civil case.
The legal costs would exceed the $1344 amount, and even if the customer were awarded a judgment including legal costs and interest, it seems unlikely that the copywriter would be able to pay it.
A few readers suggested taking it to the police, and I do think that this suggestion has merit. The copywriter was doing business in Houston, Texas, so a case could be filed with a local jurisdiction. Again, I don’t have any legal expertise, but based on what I’ve seen I think the customer may have enough evidence for a criminal fraud case.
Additionally, I discovered that there are several other people who are claiming similar problems with the same copywriter over the past couple of years. Those within the statute of limitations could potentially be added to the case as additional victims.
Some readers suggested that I get in touch with the copywriter to intervene in the situation. I liked this suggestion, and I tried hard to get in touch with him.
I emailed every known email address of the copywriter, I found him on Facebook and sent him a message, I left him a voicemail, and I even did some additional sleuthing and ran a background report on him in attempt to get contact information.
I was polite in my communication, and I even offered the opportunity for the copywriter to correct the situation, tell his side of the story, and potentially save his reputation.
Unfortunately I never heard back from him. I could have gone another step and contacted his relatives since I have their contact information too, but I felt that it would be inappropriate for me to cross that line in this situation. If the customer wanted to do that in his attempt to recover his money, that would be his prerogative.
Of course it’s possible that the copywriter was unable to respond due to extreme circumstances like injury, death, or even a month-long vacation off the grid. However, I believe those are unlikely scenarios considering the copywriter’s history.
In my research I found that he has allegedly treated other customers similarly in the past. He communicates with them in the beginning, but when things go south he cuts off the communication. Here is a thread in the Warrior forum [redacted] evidencing a couple of disgruntled customers who stopped receiving communication from him.
Now he has done the same thing to me too. When he was trying to get me to recommend his service to my subscribers, he emailed me several times and even called my home phone number a few times.
At the time I thought… wow, this guy is really on top of things. In retrospect I see a pattern that is typical of someone who is either a con-artist or has some serious personal problems and was starved for cash.
Another example of his “hit and run” style was his [redacted] membership that he launched last year. He signed up members who paid $97/month for “unlimited” sales letters. [redacted] claimed to have a team of writers working for him, but in his [redacted] “confession” in the Warrior Forum, he implies that he was doing all the work himself and quickly got burned out.
[redacted] then reportedly turned around and sold that membership site to another individual for $10,000, claiming that the site was bringing in $10,000 per month. According to the new site owner (who communicated with me on the condition of anonymity), he did not realize that he was in fact acquiring a collection of disgruntled customers who had not received the copywriting service for which they had paid.
Due to the toxicity of the situation, the new owner issued many refunds, and shut down the site, effectively losing his entire investment.
In spite of all this, the offer I made to [redacted] in my communications still stands. If he is willing to correct the situation, I’m willing to post his side of the story here on my blog… and I won’t even critique it.
Some readers thought I was being too harsh by potentially damaging the copywriter’s credibility. I contend that he damaged his own credibility.
In the previous blog post, I remained objective and did not attack the copywriter’s character at all. I presented the facts, and asked for input.
Today, on the other hand, I am calling his character into question. It’s a gut-wrenching thing for me to do, but I think it’s the right thing to do. Honestly, I hate blogs that “bash” people and drag their names through the mud. I’m not into that, and if you know me then you’ll know that’s not what I’m doing here.
A few readers felt I was being insensitive to the customer/victim by blogging about the situation. I can certainly understand that sentiment, and I’d be asking the same question.
In this case you just need to know that the customer was aware that I was going to write the article. He was OK with it, and he was grateful for the opportunity to publicize his injustice.
He was also very happy with my attempt to intervene in the situation.
Several people said I should “go with my gut”. Not a bad suggestion. For those who were intuitive enough to see that my conscience was bothering me, you’re right. I wouldn’t have blogged about it if I didn’t care.
On the one hand, emotions can make this kind of thing tricky, which is part of why I wanted to get some additional opinions on the matter. On the other hand, I do have a moral conscience that guides me, and ultimately I think I did go with my gut.
A minority of people said I should pay the refund, and their reasons were mixed.
Some said I should pay my commission to the customer, but in this situation I did not receive a commission from the copywriter.
Others said I should pay a percentage of the refund to the customer (suggestions of 10%, 33%, 50%, or perhaps an amount equal to the commission that I SHOULD have earned).
A couple of people thought I had a moral obligation to pay the full refund, citing that my recommendation was the sole basis of the buyer’s decision.
Others thought that I should pay it simply because I CAN afford it. They assumed that I am wealthier than the customer I referred, and therefore I should happily transfer some of my wealth to him.
Yet others said I should give the refund because of the positive PR it would bring me, and the goodwill that it would generate with my subscribers.
A good number of people said I should provide some other method of compensation.
Some said I should write the sales letter myself, since I know how to write sales copy.
Others said I should hire a copywriter to finish the job.
Yet others said I should provide some free coaching or give a bunch of my own products to the customer.
All very intriguing possibilities.
So you want to know what I decided?
The first thing I decided is that I want to make two things abundantly clear for the future:
1) I am not liable for your results or experience that occurs as a result of anything/anyone I recommend. Always proceed at your own risk.
2) I DO stand behind my recommendations. While I can’t be held liable for someone else’s poor service, I also will not tolerate my subscribers getting ripped off.
If you believe you have been the victim of a rip-off or scam as a result of my recommendation, I want to know about it. To the extent that I am reasonably able, I will try to get in touch with the other party to help you get the product, or get your refund.
You still need to go through the normal channels first (contact their support, request refund, etc.). But if all else fails, let me know and I’ll see what I can do. I’m not making any promises, but I’ll definitely see what I can do on a case-by-case basis. And hopefully there won’t be any more of THIS kind of case, because I’m going to be even more careful about what I recommend.
As I mentioned, I diligently tried to get in touch with the copywriter and was unable. So under normal circumstances, there’s probably not much else I would do in this situation.
However, I felt it was warranted to do something extra for this customer since I did turn his unfortunate situation into a nice case study on my blog!
So I got in touch with a copywriter named Paul Hooper-Kelly, who seems to have a stellar reputation and came recommended to me by my friend Jeremy Gislason.
Paul has pulled off some great successes for Jeremy – as well as other internet marketing top guns in a wide variety of niches – with conversion rates as high as 12.5% and sales well in excess of a million dollars from a single sales letter.
With this kind of success to his credit, Paul doesn’t work cheap. But if you’ve ever had a truly great sales letter written, you’ll understand that paying good money for high quality sales copy is actually more “affordable” than hiring a “cheap” copywriter.
After all, the true measure of a sales letter is how well it converts, and a good-converting sales letter can pay for itself quickly.
If [redacted] isn’t a con-artist, at the very least he can be faulted for charging too little for his sales letters.
That means something has to give.
Researching the market, understanding the product, and making that vital connection between the two is often overlooked by “cheap” writers– so the sales letter lacks the magic that makes it convert.
Or (as may have happened in this case) the writer is overwhelmed with work because he’s offering “bargain” prices– so he never delivers.
Being closely involved in the copywriting business, Paul knew this wasn’t the first time [redacted] had upset customers, bringing the copywriting profession into disrepute.
So, to prove not all copywriters are the same, Paul has agreed to write this reader’s unfinished sales letters on a pro bono basis!
So at this point, the problem is solved for the customer. And if [redacted] ever comes around, he owes Paul Hooper-Kelly… big time!
After inspecting Paul’s work and examining his credentials, I’ve also decided to recommend Paul in the gap that was left due to my “unendorsement” of [redacted]. I’m confident, from what I’ve heard from his happy clients, that he won’t be letting my readers down.
So, I’ve arranged for Paul to set up a special area on his site – accessible only by Eric’s Tips readers – where you can enjoy Paul’s world class copywriting for a much lower price than the general public pays for it (His normal price for a sales letter is $7500, but Eric’s Tips readers can save thousands of dollars. Other services are available too.)
So don’t order any services from his open pages. Instead, submit a ticket to my helpdesk if you’re serious about hiring a top-notch copywriter, and we’ll give you a secret link to check it out.
Now in case you’re wondering…
NO this whole thing was not some sort of publicity stunt so that I could recommend another copywriter. It just worked out this way, and I think it’s a good outcome for everyone.
Thanks again for all your input, and as always… you are welcome to leave your comments below.
Have a great day!
My long-time derived formula hardly fail in choosing the best Internet Marketer gurus!
When this issue started, I had been wondering, how is it going to end? In fact, what a perfect conclusion! This is nothing other than God’s Guidance to you Eric, and that is how it has always been for the honest people.
My formula that gives “Eric” as answer, as the best Internet Marketing expert/teacher/guru I ever come across in my e-book remains correct and hardly could it fail ever.
What an honest Real-Life-Internet-Marketer is Eric?! See how he has handled the issue intelligently and with organizational leadership skills.
As far as I know at present, Eric is my number one leader in IM industry and others follow!
Since you acted as the liaison you followed through found a solution and corrected the situation with better results. It’s simply good business.
Results are you have a better recommendation
Your followers know you back up what you say
And Paul Hooper Kelly has now become a name synonymous with ethical business practices.
You did the right thing now you and your conscience will sleep well!
Very Well Done Eric. Good to have it confirmed that there are still people out there who have good judgement and the ethics to match.
Integrety won!
Your’e a great man, Eric!
This worked out exactly as I expected & predicted. A great all round solution. From what I have come to know about you, I just knew you would work it out to reach the best outcome. WELL DONE
You have not advised that how to avoid this type of scam , may be due to ignorance your another reader may face same problem, so just to teach us that how to avoid them, how to locate them, which are the sincerity before going any contract or before delivering the cash through credit card or net banking , or paypal —- Sujit
It is a shame others have been ripped off, and I really feel for the person who bought the site as a going business! As for the reccomendation of the new person… Thats just what it is a reccomend.
Sweet solution, Eric!
Also, I do like the way your honesty has ended up serving not only the guy who was [redacted]’s victim, but everyone else who chooses to deal as honestly as they can with their customers, including Paul Hooper-Kelly. It’s a nice reminder that truth and honest will ultimately save the day. I only wish more people would realize that, and not just in the internet marketing business!
Bless you, Eric…you’re the bomb!
What a great story, well told, and definitely the right way to go about it. nice one…
http://www.chris-gaynor.com
“He’s already done that big time himself!”
Is that enough amercement? What about the stolen money?
“This guy should be behind bars”
Should he? Who is interested in all circumstances of the dark side of Eric’s bright shining medal?
Eric,
Your transparency and ethics are A+++
This was a tremendously difficult situation to resolve well, and as an affiliate marketer myself, you’ve highlighted an issue which every affiliate should take heed from.
The days and nights you lost on working this through to such a good outcome will be given back to you and your family many times over, because you let your actions be shaped by your conscience and not your pocket.
Thank you so much for the tremendous example you are to the IM community; if all the Eric’s Tips subscribers follow the same standard you have set, we will transform the whole industry.
Every blessing to your family,
Dez.
What an excellent solution in my opinion! So HALF of this problem is solved. What about the other half? Very unsatisfying to leave that up to itself. “Somebody” should take care of this guy? Maybe he just turns around and opens a new scam, loughing all the way to the bank? If I was involved in this case somehow, I definitely would find out and would STOP this guy going on to fool people, maybe help him, or punish him, but STOP him! Too many scammers get away too easy on the internet. (I know especially from my experiences in the HYIP arena some years ago …)
First of all, I think the guy is an IDIOT for asking YOU for a refund and your remedy to his situation further proves that the sun does shine on a dog’s butt every now and again.
The one thing that I will take away from this is ALWAYS put a disclaimer on a recommendation. That is, IF I ever make one again after this post.
In my humble opinion, the guy that lost the $1300 will now expect everyone he does business with to hold his hand and spoon feed him to prosperity. Hopefully this is not the case. God bless.
Hi Eric,
first of all I didn’t think you were liable for the recommendation you made.But am also glad that you have made an honest decision…
I’m sure the decision you made was with Gods guidance
Beatrice
Eric – You went above and beyond and did the right thing, taking the high road, remaining professional, and addressing the issue head on. And you turned this whole bad experience into an opportunity and learning experience for everyone. Well done!
Good outcome. To make it happier still it would be good to hear that the rogue copywriter got a smack in the mouth but sadly it is not politically correct to go down that route these days. Always used to work!
Another lesson maybe for Eric and everyone, from a complete newbie, NEVER recommend or try to earn a commision from ANYTHING that you have not actually bought or tried yourself. Hearing about it being good and acting in good faith etc is just not enough to give a 100% clear conscience.
Hi Eric
I don’t think anyone else could have handled this situation better – well done.
Paul Hooper-Kelly has a great reputation and has done copywriting for many well known ‘Gurus’ so your ‘victim’ is a lucky guy to have this outcome.Full marks to Paul for ‘stepping into the breech’.
Gail- I too was ‘stung’ for $15K for coaching that ‘never was’ several years ago and I’m still paying for it!
Your solution is a masterpiece and that is because you are Eric. I would say you are magnanimous in making the client the king and ensuring that he is satisfied.
Keep up your good works to sustain your reputation and integrity.
Best Regards,
Godfrey.
Hey Eric,
The fact that [redacted] did not respond to you to defend himself or his reputation and has a track record of dissatisfied customers, proves he is a con artist and you should put the word out about him…BIG TIME to discredit him.
E ric R eally I s C ool!!
Big up Paul Hooper Kelly!
hello sir! you know i’ve been reading this article for a quite long time but still i really did’nt understnad and want more explain that how can i earn money online, as i;m from india so pliz suggest can i do it?
Eric,
A very finely crafted solution!
One point, legal action, in the form of Small Claims Court, is not expensive…under $100 in my state. Yes, you may only get a judgment that proves noncollectable, but at least it puts one more guidepost out there for other unsuspecting potential victims.
Well done Eric,
You have handled this situation with the utmost professional and ethical solution. I applaud you on the honesty you showed by asking the opinions of those you valued most (your customers) on how they would handle the situation.
You have shown great character and class by going waaaaaaay above and beyond to help out that particular customer. I have much respect for you and your integrity. I hope that all marketers and potential marketers who have paid attention to this little soap opera have learned a thing or two here about business.
Also, I hope that everyone has seen just how negatively your business can be affected when you treat your customers poorly – as Mr. Copywriter is now finding out.
I feel bad for the original guy who got ripped off, but as I said before – that’s just business. You will have losses in business and you aren’t always going to get a refund, guarantee or get what you paid for. Write it off as a loss and move on.
Take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions and don’t whine and cry and blame someone else when something doesn’t work out.
Learn from your loss and take action to mitigate the possibility of it happening again in the future.
Again, great job Eric.
Hi Eric,
I was really wondering how on earth you were going to solve this sticky toffee!!!! This is a great solution. I’m sorry for the customer who has been scammed (haven’t we all) but I agree wholeheartedly about you not being responsible for a refund. And yes, you’ve done way more than what was expected of you. That was the best solution for all. Oh, and thanx for giving us the name of the scammer. If you didn’t write about this, who knows how many other people would have fallen for this. Keep up the good work!
Eric your moral compass guided you to what I feel is the best possible outcome for everyone. Practicing what you preach does not happen often enough in today’s fast paced society.
I talk a little about the subject here:
The main points are:
-Be especially leery of business “opportunities”
-Be an educated consumer
I expected nothing less from you, Eric.
As I continue to explore and discover what is possible, I pray that the leadership, grace and undersanding you have shown in this situation will also shown in mine. My God continue to bless you, your famly, your work and your ministry.
I don’t normally comment very often, but I have been following this situation very closely, because I have been scammed a couple of times over the last 6 years since I started doing Internet Marketing. The most expensive one was for $3500 ($US), yes being a Canadian, when our dollar was at $0.67 to the US$, it was a very painful lesson. I nealy Internet Marketing out of anger and disgust. It certainly made me a very critical and suspicious of Internet Marketers. As a result I started looking for the “Real IM Leaders and Gurus” and I found Joel Comm, Eric and others. A lot of very high quality and high integrity people. I signed up with Eric’s Tips and I have been very impressed with his quality and integrity. Eric, you had no liability … but you cared enough about your client to set things straight. There is no way you should pay for another internet marketer’s lack of integrity. Integrity is what makes people become, not just good, but great people. GREAT JOB ERIC!!!
Now that’s going over and above the call of duty. I hope you are amply rewarded for your efforts, even if it’s just feeling good about the outcome.
Cool Eric,
This is good for the upset customer and I think it is the ‘right thing’ to do!
Cheers,
Ming Jong
Hi Eric
That sounds like an extremely acceptable solution. In fact, as someone else said, its above and beyond the call of duty in this respect!
If you are the type of person who is prepared to put themselves out to resolve this type of situation in a fair-minded and business-like manner such as this, then it makes you a cut above a lot of other Internet Marketers in the field!
I will continue to look forward to receiving your ‘Eric’s Tips’ emails with enthusiasm in the future!
best regards
Hi Eric when i made my first comment to you I didn’t know who you were referring to. I now know who he is. I also signed up for his course through your recomended link. NO WORRIES
However he speakes a lot about the Lord and good works, which he should be ashamed, he has proven himself to me. as hyprocritical. Within his course he asks If we have any queries to email him. I have sent him 3 emails and not one answer back. A Bad Example Of A Christian.
I Pray for him He needs it. God Bless You Eric
Pastor Laurence
Eric, Kudos to you and Paul Hooper Kelly! the predicament you became involved with and found a viable and “more than just solution” to just means that it should encourage all of us to stay on the up and up with our business dealings…but,remain aware that not everything is always what it seems and to be quicker on our toes to resolve issues…thanks for all your lessons…always learning, Carolina
Eric, you are my hero. I love everything you post and send me via my email. You are the best there is!
You did what I thought you would do – come up with an answer that incorporated the best of the options available to you. The entire thing is also a good teaching tool for us. Best of luck to you Eric.
Bob Cannon
Eric you have shown again that you are an upright person. I commend you and Paul for your efforts to satisfy the customer.
Well Done Eric!
This type of unfortunate behavior by less-than-honest people happens all to frequently, and happens in other fields too (construction is notorious).
My concern now is for YOU – you seem to be sticking your neck out again with this new copywriter. Even though this new person seems to be excellent TODAY, we never know what can happen in the future.
My suggestion is to continue to recommend those that you feel will do a great job, but next to that recommendation put a HUGE disclaimer. You might even date the recommendation so people will have a time reference.
Best wishes to you for being an honorable marketer and person! 🙂
I would love a copy of Gails ebook – Sharketer! BTW, she has a very nice looking website – I hope others will visit.
You have done a good thing Eric – you have done much more than exposed a dishonest copywriter and helped a customer. You have provided a forum where honest people can be introduced to other honest people. We still must be cautious, even here, but you have done a good thing. Thanks!
Hi Eric,
A couple of remarks….
1. He had your home phone number, you even had his relative’s phone number and that says a lot about your relationship with this person. However he committed the fraud not you. You are responsible in some way more so if you took commission as a result of recommending his services.
2. I purchased from you a couple of years back PLR Rights to your “Affiliate Video Brander” paid $127 for it and because of my HD crash and moved my server I lost all files. I emailed you on every email and support I knew but no reply. Now you have a chance to rectify that and send me the download page. Send me an email and let me know. I do not have the receipt but have the email address I purchased with and other data for you to verify. Thank you.
Hi Eric,
A very good solution, resulting from your good intentions and honest efforts to put this situation right. Thank you for sharing this with us, best wishes.
Audrey
1) Well the only reason I knew about his relatives is because I did some extensive “sleuthing” in my effort to get in touch with him.
2) Sure just submit a ticket to my helpdesk and we should be able to help you out with that.
Hi Eric,
Great blog you’ve got here. You may have already covered this but as a Christian I would have thought prayer would have been the first thing to do.
I often try and nut out problems myself until my wife often asks “have you prayed about it.” 🙂
Keep up the good work.
-Nick
“you seem to be sticking your neck out again with this new copywriter. Even though this new person seems to be excellent TODAY, we never know what can happen in the future.”
You’re absolutely right. But an important part of doing business is taking risks.
But your disclaimer idea is a good one!
You are correct, and I did. As a business blog, I try to keep it fairly religion-neutral, because I have readers of many faiths. Our wives have wisdom, don’t they?
Yes they do. Don’t you hate it when they point out the obvious? 🙂 Keep being a great light…you’re doing awesome.
Eric, I don’t think you were liable. You did the right thing to air the problem and went beyond duty to help the poor reader.
Thanks for sharing this great lesson!
Hi Again Eric a few entries up I made my comment in regards. I stated i now knew who it was. I must claify, I was mistaken and apologise. You said his name is [redacted]
I said i purchased his programme through your recomendation. It wasn’t [redacted] i purchased. Let’s just say his first name is [redacted].
My Apologies to [redacted]. My mistake
Sorry Eric. Laurence
Hi Eric,
Thank you for the way you handled this unfortunate matter. All is well that ends well. The victim is at least compensated though not by the culprit.
This case serves as a warning to name and shame potential offenders and I hope marketers will now be more careful when dealing with their clients in future by working with diligence and integrity.
Eric, you are simply amazing. No one would have considered to
1. consider readers advise
2. offered to investigate beyond their company responsibility.
3. offered to resolve anything that was not the fault of their company.
You have shown more ethnic and courage than 95% of marketers.
Many already view marketers as liars, just to sell a product. You have proven this belief, wrong. You have added more than you know to my faith, that man giving the choice to do right, can and will do the right thing from our gut instict, which remove emotion and is usually right. Smart man, trust your instincts, the rest will take care of itself. (applauds)